Month: August 2022

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Dave:
Hey everyone. I’m Dave Meyer. Welcome to On The Market. Today, we have the Vice President of Research at the National Multifamily Housing Council, Caitlin Walter, joining us for a really, really informative interview. You’re definitely going to want to stick around for this if you’re interested in the multi-family space.
In large part due to bigger pockets, I think demand among investors for multi-family apartments, either as a sponsor, like you’re going out and buying the deals or as a passive investor, which is something I do pretty regularly, has exploded. And it’s because multi-family, over the last couple of years, has presented some of the best returns in the entire, not just in the housing and real estate industry, but across pretty much every investment class. Multi-family units has been very attractive and it’s why people want to get into it.
But the question, of course, remains just because it’s done well in the last couple years does not mean it’s going to do well in the future. So we wanted to bring on Caitlin Walter to help us understand the state of the multi-family housing market as it sits today, but also what is going to happen in the future? Is the crazy rent growth that we’ve seen going to continue? Are cap rates, which are the way that multi-family properties are valued, are they going to go up or down and change the valuations of apartment buildings? Is demand going to increase even though we’re seeing building at a much higher level than we have over the last couple of years?
These are questions I’ve personally had for a really long time, and I think you’re really going to like this interview if you have similar questions to me, because Caitlin does an excellent job explaining it. With that, let’s bring on Caitlin Walter, the Vice President of Research at the National Multifamily Housing Council. Caitlin Walter, welcome to On The Market. Thank you so much for being here.

Caitlin:
Thanks for having me.

Dave:
You currently work as the Vice President of Research at the National Multifamily Housing Council. Can you tell us a little bit about what that organization does and what you do there on a day-to-day basis?

Caitlin:
So the National Multifamily Housing Council is the trade organization that represents owners, managers, developers, as well as industry suppliers, so cable companies, things like that to the apartment industry. It’s typically the leadership of those organizations, although we do have a lot of opportunities for folks that are on the lower levels of those organizations as well. We provide research. We provide government affairs, outreach on behalf of our members, also a lot of industry best practices that we work on. And our owners, the companies can range from a couple of folks to thousands of employees, so it really runs the gamut. And at NMHC, I work in the research department, so we provide both in-house research as well as we do contract out some academic and consultant research to look at the multi-family industry, so typically rental units in buildings with five units or more.

Dave:
Well, you are the perfect person to be here right now, because so much of the data we look at is really mostly talking about single-family residences or small multi-family. That is, at least in my experience, the most readily available information about the housing market. And it is so great to find an organization like yours that provides really high quality, free for the most part if I understand, research that people can understand this market. I’d love to just start with a high level, overarching question. What is going on in the multi-family housing market, right now in August of 2022?

Caitlin:
So in August of 2022, and I should qualify, it’s the end of August, 2022, because it seems to change by the week.

Dave:
That’s true. It’s by the day. You have to say exactly what day we’re recording.

Caitlin:
We just released some research last week. We are fortunate. We have a lot of great data providers that provide free data for us to give to our members. Looking mainly at the professionally managed apartment universe, we still saw in the second quarter really high rent growth. We saw double-digit rent growth in most places. The highest places are in Florida it appears.
But people are getting nervous about the state of the overall economy, namely interest rates rising. We’ve seen a lot of costs going up over the pandemic and even before the pandemic, so insurance costs are going up, property taxes are going up. So while we are seeing those rent increases, we’re also seeing operations costs going up, too. And if you have interest rates increase, then that’s another cost item you’re going to have to absorb. So, folks are still optimistic about the fundamentals of the multi-family industry overall in terms of demand, but I think that some of the stuff going on in the economy is giving folks a little bit of a pause. But I’m hopeful that because the demand is so strong that we should be fine.

Dave:
You did some fascinating research, and I’d love to talk about this before… We’ll get back to the what’s going on in today’s market. But you brought up such a good point that demand is extremely strong and that’s led to a lot of confidence in this industry. You just conducted a really fascinating study about long-term demand trends for the multi-family industry. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Caitlin:
Sure. So we worked with one of our partner organizations, the National Apartment association, to hire consultants Hoyt Advisors, who have worked for us in the past, to look at demand for apartments going through 2035. And it found that nationally, we’ll need to build 4.3 million new units by 2035 to keep up with demand. And of that 4.3 million units, we actually need about 600,000 of those units now to ease the affordability crisis.
The bulk of that demand is going to be located in the South, namely in Texas. It shouldn’t be surprising to folks. You look at the news stories where people are moving, a lot of it is in the Southeast. And that demand estimate is actually kind of on the conservative side because they took into account the fact that immigration largely hasn’t been occurring in the past couple years to a variety of factors. So if we get immigration ramping up again, then that demand number could go even higher.

Dave:
And so, you’re talking about international immigration, right?

Caitlin:
Yes. Yeah.

Dave:
That’s really interesting. So even with a relatively conservative immigration number, you’re saying that we need 4.3 million more multi-family units over the next, what was that, 12 or 13 years, and then 600,000 is needed right now. Can you provide some context? Is 600,000 a lot? Is that achievable in the next couple years? Or is that something that the construction industry is going to struggle with?

Caitlin:
So it is a lot. It is doable, but there are a lot of headwinds. So taking a step back, when the housing crisis happened in 2007 and 2008, that coincided with the Millennials coming online, which traditionally the highest age cohort that rents are young adults. So we had this generation that was the biggest since the baby boomers, that all need to rent apartments. And because folks were concerned about building because of what was going on with single-family, it also bled over to multi-family, so we couldn’t build. So we had all these years where we needed to be building 300, 325,000 units, and we were only building 100,000. So that, yeah.

Dave:
Whoa.

Caitlin:
I think that was the lowest we built. Then we had every year you don’t meet that demand, it just kind of adds to what you need to build. Our completions for the past few years have been about where we needed to be demand-wise on an annual basis, but we’ve still got that backlog of that 600,000 units. And so, obviously, rent growth is good, but we need those units at a variety of price points, not just the high end. And because we have this backlog, we actually, in a normal functioning multi-family market, what you would have is you’d have the Class A stuff come on that’s brand new, so then the older class A would move down to Class B. Rents would get more affordable to more people. But because we had this backlog, we actually had reverse filtering happen, so the Class B was Class A rents, basically. Those who would be paying Class A rents typically, they had to pay Class B and so on, so that’s why stuff has gotten more expensive.
So we have that problem going on. We can also only really build to the high end right now, because land is expensive, materials are expensive if you can even get them. The prices have been going up. It’s also just really hard to build period because of NIMBY, or “not in my backyard” opposition. Unfortunately, a lot of folks have these preconceived notions about what’s going to happen if you get multi-family in your neighborhood, which isn’t true. And so, it’s hard to actually get stuff out of the ground because you usually have to get your land rezoned to build multifamily. And so, if the NIMBYs are against it, then it’s hard to get the rezoning. So all of those things make it more difficult to actually build new units. So in theory, we could build that 600,000, but there’s a lot of reasons why that may not be happening right now.

Dave:
That’s extremely helpful context. And I want to get back to the affordability point in just a minute, but just to summarize, if I understand correctly, you’re saying that right now, we’re actually at a decent pace. But because between the Great Recession and recent period, it was so slow, we’d have to basically go above what is a normal level and we’re not seeing that yet. And so, this backlog of 600,000 apartments, multi-family units, has persisted.
When you look at construction data, at least on the single-family market, which is what I’m a little bit more familiar with in terms of the data, you do see that construction is starting to slow down a little bit. And that’s largely because of interest rates and people fear that will lower demand, and labor and material costs are going up very consistently. Are you seeing similar trends in the multi-family market? And is there concern that construction in multi-family actually might go down?

Caitlin:
So there’s definitely concern about it. Single-family building tends to be the first to stop when you see interest rates go up. Multi-family building is typically a longer process. It’s even longer now than it has been traditionally. We’re looking at two year plus timelines to get a project built. So because of that, when multi-family developers are looking at the time horizon, they’re kind of already building in more economic uncertainty because it is a longer time horizon. But that being said, it is impacting things, the interest rates. Folks are having to get deals repriced. When you have to get a construction loan, obviously, you have a higher interest rate. It’s definitely having an impact, but not a meaningful impact is what I would probably say right now.

Dave:
So that’s hopefully positive, right?

Caitlin:
Yeah.

Dave:
Because we would like, assuming I’m just going to say we would like, but let’s just assume that we would all like to erase these deficits and actually have enough units in the country to meet demand. So we would like to see construction stay at an elevated or at a level that we have currently, or perhaps even higher to erase the deficit that you said.
Now I want to get back to your point about building A Class buildings. And that’s sort of fascinating. I never really thought about how… It makes so much sense that basically A Class turns to B Class, turns to C Class. And because there was not enough A Class in the early 2010s, now there’s no B Class or C Class even, so that’s really fascinating. And I’m curious, because you’re saying you basically have to build A Class. And for anyone listening, that’s just basically the highest end, nicer level units. Is there demand for A Class? Is there a risk that what is being built doesn’t actually meet what people want or what people can afford?

Caitlin:
So it depends by geography. So you look at places like San Francisco, it’s so expensive to build there. You really have to have a high income to meet that rent. So it depends on geography. We did see in the pandemic a lot of building. We’ve always had a lot of suburban development, but there was a lot of demand for suburban development because people wanted a unit with a den or something like that. So there definitely is demand across the income spectrum.
With the Millennials coming online, it has made it so that a lot of them seem to prefer the lifestyle of renting. You can move from metro to metro. I know when I first started working for the Council, I was living in one place. I paid $500 and actually moved to another state with the same property manager. So there are a lot of benefits like that to renting. You don’t have to pay for your $8,000 HVAC if it goes bad. So folks have started to realize those benefits. So yes, there is demand across the income spectrum. Without some sort of subsidy, you really can’t build anything except for the high end. You can’t make those deals pencil.

Dave:
That’s what I’ve seen as well, is that it’s so expensive to just get things permitted basically. It really prevents builders and developers who might otherwise want to build affordable housing and they can’t do it. Does your organization track or advocate or do anything in terms of getting those subsidies? Or do you see that subsidies are starting to become more popular so builders can bring affordable units online?

Caitlin:
So I would say that there is more of a recognition that it is difficult to build. I’m optimistic because of that. It’s still up in the air as to what folks can do about it. The Biden administration has put out a housing plan to try to address some of those impediments. However, there really is a limited amount of things that the federal government can do. It really does come down to the local jurisdictions.
A couple years ago, the Council, myself, and some colleagues put out, it’s called the Housing Affordability Toolkit, and it has a cool infographic that lays out the finances related to building and why it’s so hard to build. And then, it looks at a variety of tools that local jurisdictions can use with local developers to try to actually build things beyond just at the Class A. So things like a voluntary inclusionary zoning policy, where developers can make the choice to take a density bonus so they can build a little bit higher or some more units in exchange for providing some units at a certain income level. And so, that way it achieves both parties’ goals.
There are some other things, too. You can do tax abatement. And it really is though, each jurisdiction has to look at what they have available to them, because what’s going to work in Dallas is not going to work in San Francisco for example. So we are seeing recognition, but unfortunately, there are some short-sighted things that folks want to do instead because it seems like a quick turnaround, like rent control. Folks think that that’ll fix things. That actually makes things worse.
So I spend a lot of my time talking to folks about why things like rent control don’t work or a mandatory inclusionary zoning ordinance don’t work, because then you’re not helping the developer make that lost revenue, and they still have to make their developments pencil. And so, we do work on things like that.
At the federal level, the Council, we advocate for more funding for the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit, which is a way to make more moderate workforce housing. Unfortunately, you still can’t hit the low income targets. You would need some sort of cross-subsidy like housing choice vouchers, which we advocate for more funding for that. It’s otherwise known as Section 8 vouchers. So there are some federal subsidy programs, but they’re way underfunded. What is there gets used, and so we try to make sure that what is there can be used in the best way possible and always ask for more money.

Dave:
That’s super helpful. I am very curious about the rent control issue. It’s actually something I’ve always personally just wanted to learn more about, because someone posed the question to me the other day about rent control. And Portland, Oregon was used as an example, because it does have rent control policies. And as of, I think, it was like in May or June, I was looking into it, and it literally had the highest rent growth in the whole country. So how does that make sense? And I know we could do a whole show about this, but can you just give us a quick explainer on why rent control doesn’t actually keep rent low?

Caitlin:
The shortest response is that it’s essentially a lottery system. Not everybody can get a rent controlled unit. There are stories about the old school rent control, which is what everybody knows in New York City. You pass it down generation to generation. Those are not the folks that largely need the unit anymore. There’s lower turnover and they don’t have income verification, so you don’t know that the low-income household that got it in 1952 is still the low-income household in 2022. I shouldn’t say 1952. I can’t remember what year New York City’s was enacted.
But you have these well-intended policies to have rent increases at a more normal rate. So it’s intended so you’re not going to see a 15% rent increase, you’re going to see a 5% increase. Usually it’s the CPI plus 5%. But unfortunately, it starts at CPI plus 5%, and then another city council comes in and they lower it. And then, before you know it, you have what happened in Berkeley, California, where you basically don’t have rent increases. We have these huge cost increases that property owners are trying to absorb for insurance increases, for property tax increases. You need to be able to absorb those costs.
And then, the other problem associated with it is we don’t have rent control around the United States, nor should we have rent control around the United States. So if I’m a developer that is trying to decide between building in a place that has rent control and building in a place that does not have rent control, I’m going to, and all else equal, I’m going to choose a place that doesn’t have rent control.
So we saw that happen last year. St. Paul and Minneapolis both approved rent control ordinances. One went into effect right away in St. Paul, and their development pipeline essentially stopped. So that’s what happens with rent control. And we did do a survey with the National Association of Home Builders a few months ago and found that yeah, folks do just avoid building in places that have inclusionary zoning ordinances or rent control on the books.

Dave:
Wow. Okay. That’s super helpful. We might have to do a whole other show about this. I’m sure there’s a lot to this topic.

Caitlin:
There is a ton.

Dave:
But thank you for the quick overview. So I want to get to some actionable items for our listeners, because I’m sure people are listening to this and wondering what as an investor they should be thinking about. And the first question that comes to mind is where are you seeing the largest demand? You mentioned Texas, but in your analyses, have you seen other areas that have disproportionately large demand or places that might have falling demand on the other side of the equation?

Caitlin:
Texas is one, Florida is another. They seem to have the highest rent growth right now. There are a lot of cities or metro areas that have been traditionally, I would think of them as single-family centric places like Nashville and Charleston, South Carolina. They’ve seen a lot of demand, but they’ve also seen a lot of building.
So what I tend to look at is I look at the population growth in a certain metro as well as what’s already been built there. And then, also what do you have in terms of employment opportunities? So, yeah. Texas has a ton of building, has a ton of population migration, but they’ve also got a lot of headquarters moving there, which was occurring even before the pandemic.
You look at Plano, Texas, they essentially built an entire new city. They’ve got several huge companies there. Places like Virginia, Northern Virginia, Amazon is going there. And it’s not just in Arlington. They have huge warehouse facilities in Winchester, which is not that far. Those are all things I look for. Again, places like Nashville, Charleston, they’ve gotten a lot of attention, but they’ve also gotten a lot of building, so they would be too that I don’t quite see quite so much necessary construction going forward.

Dave:
Is there anywhere that our audience can find some of this data that’s publicly available or easily digestible that you recommend?

Caitlin:
Yes. So if you go to www.weareapartments.org, it has a map of the US and it will have the total demand for the US, and then all 50 states and DC, as well as 50 metro areas.

Dave:
Oh, wow. That’s very cool. I did not know about that. And I love the URL. So weareapartments.com. We’ll definitely put a link.

Caitlin:
Yeah, weareapartments.org.

Dave:
Dot org, excuse me.

Caitlin:
Yes.

Dave:
And we will put a link to that in our show notes. So you mentioned at the top of the show that rents were still growing pretty quickly. What are you seeing in terms of rent growth? How fast is it growing, and is there any signs that it’s starting to slow down?

Caitlin:
So anecdotally, yes, we’re hearing it’s slowing down. However, it has not shown up in the data as of yet. So nationally, the rent growth, from RealPage, which is one of our private data providers, was 14.5% year-over-year in the second quarter, pretty high. So we’re expecting, and again, anecdotally expecting that rent growth to go down a little bit. I should note that that 14.5%, that’s professionally managed apartments, so they tend to skew a little towards the higher end. So mom and pops are not captured in that data. But I took a look, and I believe of the 200 or so metro areas that RealPage covers, all but maybe a dozen had double-digit rent growth. It was pretty crazy.

Dave:
Wow. That is remarkable. We’ve been seeing those double-digit numbers for, I guess, was it more than two years now? It felt unsustainable even at the beginning of that. And now, a few years later, we’re still seeing that. But you said anecdotally, I’m sure in addition to data, which of course lags by at least a month or so, it sounds like some of your operators are seeing that maybe start to slow down a bit?

Caitlin:
Yeah. Anecdotally, we’re hearing that. So again, you mentioned it’s a couple years that this has been happening. We had a lot of change at the beginning of the pandemic. Folks fled the cities, so we saw a decline. So for a while, that double-digit increase was just getting back to where we would have been had the pandemic not occurred basically, but we have well surpassed that now. But yeah, some of the apartments that have been in the pipeline for quite a while have started to deliver. So the thought is that this rent growth, we’ve probably hit our top. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing, because it’s easier to project out with less volatility.

Dave:
Yeah. That makes sense. And to your point about affordability, if rent growth keeps going up at a much faster rate than wage growth is going up like it is right now, that could definitely exacerbate the affordability problem that we’re seeing in a lot of markets right now.

Caitlin:
We saw in the beginning, obviously, there was the Rent Relief that was passed in Congress. But now we’ve seen with what’s going on with the stock market and interest rates, we’ve started to see kind of the higher end of the economy of the workforce be hit a little bit more, so that might be impacting things as well. It’s obviously not concerning at this point, but it might put a little bit of a damper on things.

Dave:
Last week, we were doing a show, and one of our panelists who is a regular on the show, her name is Kathy Fettke, was talking about some deals that she was looking at, multi-families that she was considering investing in. And she was saying that she felt like multi-family pricing for purchases, not rent, hasn’t adjusted yet. We’ve started to see at least in a few select markets on the West Coast in the single-family market, prices are coming down a little bit off their peak. Is there any evidence that pricing in the multi-family market has changed at all to date or is likely to change?

Caitlin:
I think it’s likely to change. Again, I’ve only heard anecdotal stuff so far. It hasn’t shown up in the numbers. So second quarter, Real Capital Analytics, who track a lot of the bigger purchases, I think their threshold is a million and a half maybe per transaction, they still had historic highs, in terms of sales volume. But I definitely know it’s something that people are conscious of, that deals need to be repriced, or some deals will need to be repriced, I should say. I would expect that to start to happen more.

Dave:
Yeah. I was looking at your data and it seemed like in, I think it was Q2 2022, correct me if I’m wrong, the sales volume for total deals done was one of the highest it’s ever been. Is that right?

Caitlin:
Yeah. And so, the tracking started in ’01. It still hit a historic high in the second quarter.

Dave:
Yeah. I think anecdotally we see that, just that bigger pockets in general. There’s just been a huge amount of interest in multi-family housing because of the things we’ve been talking about. There’s a lot of demand, rent growth has been really strong, it’s an attractive option.
But we were chatting before the show. You were sharing some data with me that cap rates, which for anyone listening to, is basically a way of valuing multi-family properties based off of their income. And generally speaking, sellers want to sell at a low cap rate, because that means they get more money for each dollar of rent they collect, essentially. And I’m really oversimplifying here. But buyers also want to buy at a higher cap rate. But right now cap rates are, you said extremely low, right?

Caitlin:
They’ve been low for quite a while. But in second quarter of ’22, they were 4.5%, and that was down from 5% in the second quarter of 2021. So yeah, they are low. A lot of people tend to compare single-family and multi-family, but a lot of the competition from multi-family comes from other commercial types, so retail office. And so, we have the benefit that comparing to office, that performance is still quite strong.

Dave:
Oh, that’s interesting. And do you see that or do you expect that demand is up in multi-family because retail and office have sort of taken a hit over the last couple of years?

Caitlin:
There were folks that needed to get money out the door for a variety of reasons. And if you’re competing for… Now, we did have the kind of side note of the single-family build-for-rent, which is a very new phenomenon, so that has changed the game a little bit. But yes, if you need to get money out the door and you have to choose between office, multi-family, and retail, you’re probably going to… A lot of them chose multi-family. Industrial obviously, is very successful, but yeah, if you’re comparing between those property types, then multi-family generally wins out.

Dave:
Yeah. That brings up a great question, because you see cap rate so low and expect that they will rise. And this is just my personal opinion, I think they’ll rise a little bit. But you wonder how much they would rise just because there’s so much demand for apartments as we’ve been talking about, and there’s demand from investors because it is relatively the most attractive property type as you said, or at least has been over the last few years. We don’t know what will happen in the future, but it does make you wonder how much they would rise. And if deals do start to get repriced, how dramatic that adjustment might be.

Caitlin:
Yeah. I think we’re still in the wait and see scenario, because we don’t know how much more interest rates will rise, what’s going to go on with the other sectors. I know there’s a lot of talk about adaptive reuse. We’re trying to work on some research for that. So changing a suburban office park into apartments is not an easy feat, but it’s definitely getting talked about more. I know I drove by a completely empty office park the other day and was like, “They need to do something with that. It’s been like this for years at this point.” So I think that folks are still trying to figure out what to do. But yeah, cap rates are low. So I think that if they went up, I wouldn’t be shocked.

Dave:
I love the idea of adaptive used too, by the way. I was talking to someone about that this weekend, that there’s just a lot of office space, in particular, that could be repurposed into multi-family housing. And like you said, not easy, but an interesting prospect. It’d be cool if they could figure that out.
The last thing I really wanted to talk about was over the last few years, there has been a lot made about institutional investors entering the housing market. And you just touched on it a little bit, because a lot of the build-for-rent phenomenon has been driven by those institutional investors. Are institutional investors… Traditionally, they are more into multi-family. These are big, high dollar buildings. But has the amount of dollars flowing into multi-family from these large hedge funds and other institutional investors increased over the last few years?

Caitlin:
I don’t know if it’s increased in terms of volume. It’s hard to get data on that. If you look at our top 50 though, it’s undeniable that there are certain companies, private equity funds, for example, that are at the top of the list. I would say, however, I don’t know that there is a universally accepted definition of private equity. There is actually an official one, but that’s not what people think when they think private equity.
For example, there is a company on the top 50 that has been at the top of the top 50 for quite a while. And I actually had to Google that they were private equity owned, because I didn’t even realize it because I think of them as a traditional multi-family manager. I think that private equity can mean different things, and that’s typically what people talk about when they talk about institutional ownership, are those private equity firms.
Undeniable that there are some things that don’t go right when you have institutional capital coming in, but there are a lot of things that can go well. You have an economy of scale, and so when you look at what happened with the pandemic, some of these companies were able to put in place rent freezes, their own voluntary eviction moratoriums, because they could afford to absorb that hit. It’s a double-edged sword. I don’t deny that. There’s a lot more attention to it. The size, if you look at the number of units owned on the top 50, has remained largely constant over time. There’s actually a company that’s owned more units in the mid-nineties than one of the big top 50 firms now. I can’t remember if they officially surpassed the nineties height, but yeah, there’s always been economies of scale.

Dave:
All right. Thank you. Yeah, it’s just interesting. Honestly, I’m not happy about it, but it makes me feel a little… I also struggle to find data about institutional investors, especially in the single-family market. And it seems that everyone who puts out a report has an entirely different methodology for how they’re getting that. And so, you can never really get a consistent answer. And you hear all this anecdotal evidence about it, but it’s really hard to quantify what the impact of these institutional investors are, it sounds like both for single-family and the multi-family housing market.

Caitlin:
Well, it’s especially weird on the single-family side, because you have the single-family rentals and then you have the single-family build-for-rent, which a lot of our members, multi-family members have started investing in the single-family build-for-rent, because it’s essentially an apartment community, they’re just single-family, detached houses. But they’re all in the same community. They all can have the same benefits of multi-family renting. So you can have your maintenance crew out there. You can have your leasing office out there. So it’s essentially the same thing, but single-family detached. And so, you have to figure out how do you quantify that, because a scattered site, single-family rental who were a lot of the big, bad institutional ownership, that’s a completely separate phenomenon.

Dave:
Yeah, that’s a good point. It is really just an apartment community, it’s just a slightly different property type. So this has been very enlightening. Caitlin, thank you. Is there anything else you think our audience should know about the state of the multi-family housing market or where you think it might be going over the next few years?

Caitlin:
I would say since it’s multi-family investors, a lot of folks will look at things like cap rates and sales volumes. And yes, they are important, but at the end of the day, it’s the underlying demand. I’m a land use planner by training, so that’s kind of where I default to anyway. But you have to know where the people are going and where they want to work and where they want to live.
So there are some TBDs, still. The teleworking phenomenon, we don’t know if that’s going to stay. I was a teleworker before it was cool in the pandemic. You don’t know how often folks are going to get required to be in the office. We’ve seen some stories about Boise, where maybe people have had to move away because the teleworking wasn’t as permanent as they expected. Where I live, West Virginia, they’ve tried to bring more teleworkers. And I don’t think it’s been hugely successful under their programs, so I think that part of the demand is still TBD. And if you’re really looking for places to invest, I would look at places that maybe are beyond the teleworking phenomenon and have good fundamentals there.

Dave:
That’s great advice. We actually just did a show on work from home, and we brought in a lot of data and it’s really interesting. And my hypothesis was sort of like, I don’t think there’s going to be more teleworking go forward. I don’t think any companies that have held out on remote work are going to start adding it right now. But I’ve already started to see just talking to friends who work at large, publicly traded companies, they are starting to step it back a little bit. And even though they stated a work from home policy are now saying, “Eh, you might need to be in the office one or two days a week.” And it could be interesting to see if that reverses any of the migration trends that we’ve seen over the last couple of years or at least slows down probably some of the ones that we’ve seen.

Caitlin:
I did my dissertation work on population, metropolitan development. A lot of the older literature talks about how it’s really proximity to a major airport.

Dave:
Really?

Caitlin:
Yeah. Which is at least is true for me. I’m the example of one. I live closer to Dulles Airport than I do to my office in DC. Because if you’re not going to live near where your office is, at least I can hop on a plane and get to a conference really easily. And that’s true for a lot of teleworkers apparently.

Dave:
That’s super interesting. I never thought about that at all. Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for being here. If people want to read your research or learn more about you, what’s the best place to connect?

Caitlin:
You can email me at [email protected] I’m, I guess, an elderly Millennial, so I’m not great at checking my LinkedIn or my Twitter. But I do have a LinkedIn, Caitlin Surgue Walter, if you want to look me up.

Dave:
Awesome. I haven’t heard the term elderly Millennial. That seems like an oxymoron, but I think I’d probably qualify as the same thing. Well, thank you so much. For everyone listening, Caitlin told us before, this is her first podcast ever. And I think I’ll speak for everyone. You did a fantastic job.

Caitlin:
Oh, thank you.

Dave:
You’re a natural.

Caitlin:
It was fun.

Dave:
So this was a lot of fun, and hopefully we can have you back. Our audience is very interested in the multi-family market, and you and your organization are doing some of the best research I’ve seen about the multi-family market. And we really appreciate everything you’re bringing to the investor community and helping us understand.

Caitlin:
Oh, thanks, happy to help.

Dave:
Huge thank you to Caitlin Walter for joining us today. That was a super informative interview. I know I personally learned a lot. And I’ve been trying to understand the multi-family market a lot better, myself personally. I have never sponsored a multi-family deal, but I do primarily invest in syndications and specifically in multi-family deals over the last couple years. And so, I’ve been trying to learn more about this industry. And I highly recommend you check out NNHC.org. They have a ton of amazing research about the industry, so definitely want to plug that.
The main thing I took away from this interview and why I was so excited to have Caitlin on in the first place, was just looking at the long-term demand trends. And when we are on this show, we talk a lot about what is happening in the market here and now today. And that is super important because as an investor, you should be staying on top of those things so that you can make decisions about what property you want to buy, what market you should be in, what you should be looking for, what questions you should be asking. That’s super important.
But it’s also, even when you take all of those things into account, it’s very difficult to time the market. And to me, what gives me confidence investing in multi-family are these long-term trends. And if there’s anything you want to see in something you’re investing in, is that there is long-term demand. And so, what Caitlin was able to share with us is that the United States needs 4.3 million new units by 2035. There’s a backlog of 600,000 units that has persisted for years, and that there is a chance that multi-family construction could decline with rising interest rates and increased prices. So to me, that means that demand for multi-family rentals, from the renter perspective, there are still going to be a lot of people who are looking to live in these multi-family apartments, and that means demand and potentially rent growth and revenue are going to continue.
So for me, this gives me a lot of confidence investing in multi-family. Of course, we also learned that some deals need to be repriced right now. Kathy shared a deal with us where she was seeing pricing for multi-families stay stubbornly high, even despite rising costs and rising interest rates, which should bring prices down a little bit. So you do want to be careful and you do want to make sure that you are buying at an appropriate rate. But to me, if you are investing in the long-term, which in my opinion, you should be, this bodes very, very well for the entire multi-family industry for over a decade, which is an incredible time horizon to feel comfort that there’s demand for your investment class.
So big thank you to Caitlin. I hope you all learned a lot from this episode like I did. If you have any questions for me or want to connect about this episode, please do so on Instagram where I’m @thedatadeli. Or if you want to connect with our community of investors and data-focused investors, you should do that on the BiggerPockets forums. You can just go to biggerpockets.com and we have a special dedicated forum just for On The Market Podcast. We’d love to answer some of your questions there. I will be there answering them and it’s just a great place to connect. So as always, thank you all for listening. We’ll see you again next time.
On The Market is created by me, Dave Meyer, and Kaylin Bennett. Produced by Kaylin Bennett. Editing by Joel Esparza and Onyx Media. Copywriting by Nate Weintraub. And a very special thanks to the entire BiggerPockets team. The content on the show On The Market are opinions only. All listeners should independently verify data points, opinions, and investment strategies.

 

Mindy:
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, show number 331, where we interview Skyler and hear how he and his wife use geographic arbitrage and hustle to save 80 to 90% of their teacher salary, invest in real estate, travel the world, adopt two kids. Basically he’s going to make you feel like a total slacker, but it’s such a great story.

Skyler:
As much as I love my profession, there’s a lot of victimhood in it of like, “I’m a teacher. I don’t make enough, so I’m not going to be able to do these things.” And it’s much more of a perspective of you have time. And what are you going to do with that time? How do you ever utilize that? Whether it’s a second job, you’re making things with your hands, you’re doing some type of craft? I don’t know what that is for everybody, but utilizing that hustle and that time to make things happen and to not be afraid to ask questions. They don’t do a great job teaching you about 457s and HSAs. They just kind of throw you in and say, “Here’s your pension.” We have a pension to fall back on too when we retire. And that’s like our safety safety net. And so really asking questions and then utilizing that time that you have is probably the biggest steps.

Mindy:
Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen and with me as always is my total slacker cohost, Scott Trench.

Scott:
Hey, I’m not a total slacker.

Mindy:
Do you save 80 to 90% of your teacher salary, invest in real estate, travel the world and adopt two kids?

Scott:
I do invest in real estate.

Mindy:
With me always as my kind of slacker co-host, Scott Trench. Scott and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else. To introduce you to every money story, because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you are starting.

Scott:
That’s right. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments in assets like real estate, start your own business or achieve financial freedom with a low income job like teaching, we’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way, so you can launch yourself towards those dreams.

Mindy:
Scott, I am super excited for Skyler to join us today. He has an excellent story that kind of proves me right when I say, “Financial freedom is attainable for everyone, no matter when or where you’re starting.”

Scott:
Yeah, this was a really cool story. I think it’s a testament to Skyler’s hustle, his heart, his creativity, and his willingness to take risks here that I think enabled him to achieve a really incredible economic outcome for himself and his family early in life here, starting as a teacher.

Mindy:
Two teacher salaries, and they’re still crushing it.

Scott:
Absolutely. Well, should we bring him in?

Mindy:
Skyler, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you today.

Scott:
Yeah, thanks for having me, excited to be here.

Mindy:
Skyler reached out to us to tell us his story, which is a really, really awesome story of basically not earning a ton of money, but still living like he kind of does, because he’s got so many different ways that he is investing his money and allowing it to grow to provide the type of life he wants to have. Skyler, let’s jump into your money story. Where does your journey with money begin?

Skyler:
Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me here. Like I mentioned before, I wish my wife could be here. She’s the partner in all this and definitely keeps us both accountable in a lot of ways, but my money story probably started early on. I was born to teenage parents that were in high school, they were 17 years old. And so their money story was kind of a part of mine. And the struggle of raising a son at such a young age and graduating high school and getting into the workforce. My dad was the kind of guy, or still is the kind of guy that drives a beat-up truck. And as a kid I just remember he would shop for all of his clothes at Goodwill. And that was a really big example for me to learn early on about materials and how to approach life from a cheaper standpoint.
My mom is a very forward person who’s not afraid to ask for deals, even if they’re not labeled. She is very persistent and she’s given me that drive to be able to ask the one more question or to maybe put myself in a situation other people are afraid to put themselves in. I grew up in a small town and I was very lucky that I grew up in that town, because most of my friends had very educated parents that had great careers. So, whereas I came from a young family that kind of struggled in a lot of ways, I got to hang out with kids that had parents that had gotten their doctorates or CEOs, and so I kind of got the best of both worlds in my opinion. That’s kind of where I grew up.

Scott:
Awesome. And how about in the high school years and those types of things? How did you make, earn or save money or did you blow it all? What was your relationship with money before you got into college?

Skyler:
I was very lucky that, I won’t lie, that my grandparents were very spoiling to us. So whereas my parents always were kind of making ends meet and working hard, my grandparents definitely spoiled us and gave me some of the ability to do some of those things with those friends that were able to afford those things. I did not work a lot in the high school years because I was a athlete that played a lot of sports. But growing up I did the whole sell candy bars from Costco in the locker rooms. I used to, when I was in middle school I would go to Goodwill and I’d buy Nintendos that were at Goodwill and I’d refurbish them and sell them on eBay to make a couple extra bucks here and there. So, I kind of hustled my way, but no formative job during those years.

Scott:
Awesome. So what was the position you kind of left high school with and entered college from?

Skyler:
Yeah, so I was a first generation college student, so the path wasn’t really laid out. All of my friends were going to college and I knew it was the thing we were supposed to do. I just wanted to play basketball. So I ended up going to a junior college because I could afford it and I could play basketball. So I did that, and at the time my family, it was 2008, had lost everything. We filed bankruptcy, we lost our home, cars. We actually ended up kind of on food stamps and doing the whole Christmas and Thanksgiving at the food bank. And it was hard, for sure. I have two younger brothers and it was a hard time for us to lose our home that we grew up in since birth. But I guess the flip side, which is the important thing with investing in my opinion, is to look at the silver lining is we qualified for full financial aid, which was a whole process to learn, but ultimately gave me four free years of school.

Mindy:
Okay, so what did you study in college?

Skyler:
I did my general AA, two year degree, mainly because I didn’t know the direction I was going in. And then when you get to that big university, which I transferred to after you, the world is your oyster and you have all these majors. And so I kind of floated around a little bit. I sat through one accounting class taught by a grad assistant for me to realize I hated accounting. So business went out the window pretty quick for me, that one class kind of did it. And I thought about different things. But ultimately, once I realized I wanted to be a teacher, I did the math and the quickest path was for me to get my Bachelor’s in Psychology and then go back and get my Masters in Teaching.

Mindy:
Okay, so you said four years of college was free essentially because you qualified for your loans. Or I’m sorry, you qualified for aid. Was it, that was the first two years in junior college and the second two years in the four year college, or did you get your masters paid for as well?

Skyler:
I got my Pell Grant and my FAFSA grants and my scholarships not only paid for school, but they paid for my living, they paid for my groceries. And my friends and I and my wife found us an apartment on Craigslist, $125 each a month. She wouldn’t stay the night. It had an Oleum flooring in the whole apartment, dingy grungy, but it was 125 bucks a month and we were able to save a ton of money. So I was getting paid at one point, I’d end up with cash at the end of the month from all those grants. So that was my four years completely paid for. Paid for my summers at home, everything. And then my masters I got subsidized loans, but I did have to pay for that.

Scott:
That’s incredible. So Skyler, could you give us a little bit of an idea about how you were able to qualify for all of these grants, or what the major contributors were, or things that allowed you to get all that money and where people can learn more about that?

Skyler:
Yeah, like I said, if you use an accountant particularly, that’s a great resource. Obviously they can get you the numbers and resources you need. A lot of the paperwork is pretty mundane and it takes a long time. So if you Google FAFSA, you’re going to find the financial aid assistance website and there’s lots of resources on there. A lot of it you kind of have to self-teach yourself, but I’d say as a high school teacher, one of your biggest proponents and resources is going to be your high school for your son or daughter student. The counselors there have been through that process with other students. And mine happened post high school because of the financial crisis was right after I graduated. But I would say if you think your son or daughter or yourself may qualify, because it applies to adults as well, your high school counselor and the FAFSA website are great resources.

Scott:
Great. And most people will be familiar with that with FAFSA, F-A-F-S-A. You can Google that and learn more about it.

Mindy:
Okay, so thank you for that. I think that that’s going to be really helpful for people who are looking for more information about that, paying for college. I think that’s great. Good job on living on, did you say $125 a month for rent?

Skyler:
It was ridiculous. It was the nastiest, I don’t, I didn’t meet code, that’s for sure. But my wife found it. We didn’t even see it. We just said, “Take it.” And with the FAFSA too, myself, my brother, my other brother and my mom all went back to school for free. So our whole family went debt free for four years.

Scott:
Awesome.

Skyler:
So it was pretty fascinating.

Mindy:
That’s fantastic.

Skyler:
And no one had ever graduated college in our family. So all of a sudden that opened the door. I mean, it was a crummy situation, but turned it into a silver lining.

Mindy:
Well, but you made, took lemons and made lemonade.

Skyler:
Absolutely.

Mindy:
Okay, let’s look at your college graduation. So you graduated from college with a four year degree and then you went on to grad school to get your master’s degree. What was your financial position when you graduated college? Or I’m sorry, from your grad school program?

Skyler:
Yeah, I had moved back home to my local town, that’s where the private university was at. And I kind of did the math. It was an expensive tuition. It was a one year program for $32,000 and I had to take out subsidized loans on all of that. My FASFA didn’t extend into your masters. It only goes to your four year degree. Past that I just got subsidized loans with a better rate. So, my math was, in our state you get paid about seven to $8,000 more a month if you have your masters, or excuse me, $8,000 more a year if you have your masters. So it was a calculated move to get my masters done in a year so I could get to teaching as quick as I could. And then I just always thought I would pocket that extra money towards paying those loans off each year.

Scott:
Awesome. What year did you graduate from that master’s program?

Skyler:
Yeah, from the master’s program it was 2012 in the spring.

Scott:
Awesome. So, what happens next? You’re $32,000 in debt, do you have any savings? What happens next?

Skyler:
Well, I have a couple thousand dollars in my account that Uncle Sam has given me up to this point, but that’s about it and it usually doesn’t work that way, I know. But at this point I’m already a frugal person, so I’m staying at my grandparents’ house for free. That spring I graduate, that summer I get my first job. So I get a teaching job right out of school, which was difficult during that time. But growing up in that area helped me get a job. And so that first job, with the coaching stipends I was making about $48,000 a year and we can kind start getting the numbers, I guess. So yeah, I was making about 48 grand a year and I ended up moving into my friend’s basement and I paid $500 a month for rent. He was very gracious to allow me to do that. It was a nice little basement setup.
And I was saving, those first few months I was saving about 1500 to $2,000 of my $3,000 paycheck towards my loan. So I just started aggressively. Hammering, had a used car, it was great. I thought it was nice, worked well. And I just started hammering out the debt at that point. Okay, so I’m paying off about 1,500 to $2,000. At this point I knew I wanted to get, coming from a family that had lost everything, home, cars, all this stuff, I was just really scared of debt. It had nothing to do with financial independence at this point. It was just more, I didn’t like to owe anybody anything. That’s kind of my dad’s mantra. You drive a cheap car, you buy your clothes at Goodwill, you don’t owe people things. And so, I was just on a mission to pay off my debt.
And he had taught me, being financially independent, being frugal isn’t in a punishment. It’s an investment in yourself, in your future. And it wasn’t really hard. It was kind of second nature from the, I’d like to say I was really suffering, but I thought I was living pretty good.
So a funny story, I had a parent approach me on the basketball team that I was coaching, And it was a dad and he was kind of dressed in just kind a beat-up sweatshirt, a college sweatshirt and fleece shorts and sandals. And he kind of knew that I was living farther away from the school to be cheaper. And he said, “Hey, I have a unique opportunity to go work in Sacramento. And my son,” his wife has passed away at this point. And he said that his son, he wanted him to stay at his house, but only way to do this is to have an adult home. He’s like, “Would you live in my basement so my son can stay at our home versus putting him in a neighbor’s and it’ll be free?” So I just like, “Sure.” And he was like, “I’ll come check the place out.” So he sent me the address and I was-

Mindy:
“I’ll come check the place out.” Like you’re going to say no.

Skyler:
No, a 100% not going to say no. Yeah, absolutely. And a key point is like, I’ve been dating my wife now since high school, so this entire time we’ve been together. And I get on the phone with my wife and I tell her, “Yeah, I’m just going to drive out there and drop my stuff off and start living there.” And it was in pretty nice part of town. And so I start driving up the hill and the higher up the hill you go, the nicer the houses are. And so I’m driving and I’m driving and I keep driving and I’m starting to get intrigued if I’m going to go over the hill and back down the other side. But I got to the top and I’m in a neighborhood of million dollar homes and it’s a 1,400 square foot basement with a bar, a ping pong table, a movie theater and a bedroom. And this was what was offered to me for free. And I almost said no, because I just was judging a book by its cover. So now I’m living for free in this basically apartment.

Scott:
And what year is this?

Skyler:
This is still 2012, tail end of 2012.

Scott:
So you paid a couple thousand bucks towards your student loan debt moving into, now you’re living for free?

Skyler:
Yeah, so now I’m paying about 2,500 bucks a month towards my student loans, living off 600 bucks, the groceries were included. I mean, the most gracious family. They’ve taken me in, they’re like a family now to me. It was just the perfect setup. So, I guess there is like, don’t say no to opportunities when they don’t look. Maybe not at first you may not like the way they look, you got to check them out. I was going to live in that house, no matter what, but it ended up being an extra bonus that it was nice. And so around this time, it’s turning 2013, I went to Dave Ramsey for my first bit of financial help. Because if you Google try to be debt-free, he’s one of the ones that comes up first. So I had adopted kind of the snowball method at this point.
So, I was taking debts that were two or $300 loans, these smaller loans, 1,500, and I would pay them off gradually. And I remember I would print off the paper that says, “Congratulations, you owe $0,” and so on. And I had a file right next to my desk at school and I’d print it off and I’d put it in that file. And I would just cross it off. And I kept putting these 1,500, $2,000 loans in my file. And it just felt so good to have this little place right next to me that I could see these things slowly stacking. And also, I mean, I know most of us heard of the debt snowball, but it was just so powerful to feel like I was doing something, versus looking at the big picture and, “How am I ever going to get a dent in this thing?” I just slowly accumulated these little letters saying I paid off that loan.

Scott:
And just for folks who are not familiar with the student loans, they come in chunks of a 1,000 bucks. So you have $32,000 in student loans, but you have maybe 10, 15 loans that are all 1,000, 2,000 bucks. And so you’re saying, once you get a receipt from paying those off, it’s like a check, “I could put that away and file it off,” right?

Skyler:
Yeah, and I tried to attack some of the higher interest rates, but they were within four to 6%. And so for me the mental accomplishment of it was worth trying to maybe take one of the bigger 6% loans that would have deflated me. So I just took those small wins and let the singles become home runs.

Mindy:
Yes, okay. There are people who argue with this debt snowball method, and that’s fine, “Oh, you’re not arbitraging the interest rate. You’re not paying down, mathematically it doesn’t make the most sense.” Forget that, you need, some people need the wins and it just keeps them going. What does it matter that you just paid down a 27% interest rate loan over the course of five years versus getting that little win to keep you going and keep you motivated? So yeah, it just all depends on what your mental state is and how you feel about debt. Did you have any sort of emergency fund while you were doing this, or were you throwing literally every dollar you could at your loans?

Skyler:
I didn’t really foresee what emergency could have happened, because I was just like, my car breaks down, I’ll walk to school, I’m staying for free, my groceries are paid for. I probably had a few thousand dollars set aside. Like I said, I wasn’t trying to hedge inflation. I wasn’t looking for the most advantageous place for my investment. I was just trying to not owe anybody anything. So, I probably got lucky, a big life, but I could have dialed back any of those months, that $2,000 input into my student loans and kind of created a balloon for myself there. Because I was voluntarily paying much higher than my obvious my payment was. So I probably didn’t have so much saved up as much as the flexibility to live one more month, put it on a credit card if I need to, if I absolutely had to and then lived to that next, that paycheck.

Scott:
Okay, I have two questions here. What subjects were you teaching?

Skyler:
At the time I was teaching middle school technology, like robotics, things like that, yeah.

Scott:
Awesome. And then most importantly, how did the basketball team do that first season?

Skyler:
Well, that’s so many more podcasts that we don’t have time for. I was a 21-year-old head coach of a very large school. So, I made a lot of mistakes in baptism by fire in that sense. But we, I probably got the job because we weren’t that good that year. We eventually ended up being really good, but those first few years were, it was a learning curve for all of us, let’s just put it that way. Let’s stick to finances.

Scott:
You got to hear about the basketball team’s story in parallel to your finance story over the-

Skyler:
That’s true, that’s true.

Scott:
Okay, so great. So the first year, how much are you able to pay off and how does the journey continue from here?

Skyler:
Yeah, so that first year, I mean, we’re talking, all this happened in a span of me getting my job in September and now we’re in December. So I was, at this point I’d gotten $6,000 of my loans paid off. Because you get paid starting in September as a teacher and you only get it once a month. So we’re not too deep into it, but it starts, like I said, progressively snowballing from here. In 2013 my wife, I believe that year had graduated from her four year degree, just girlfriend at this point, although we’d been together for five years. And she had a really tough decision to make too, kind of going back to college. She could go to a private school near me, and we had been doing long distance for three years, and pay $75,000 more on tuition, or go to a state school six hours away and pay $75,000 less.
And our thing was we knew we were going to get married, but we wanted to financially and have our own independence and identity. So she did what was best for her. She went to the school six hours away, thankful for that. That was a smart decision on her part, and it grew our relationship in different ways. She graduated a little bit later in 2013 and we had gotten an apartment together that was $850 a month. So I moved out of this amazing situation that I had and moved into an apartment with my wife and we’re paying 850 bucks on my salary. So, I kind of dipped into that savings, the ability to pay my loans a touch there.
So in going into 2014 is when our financial story of picks up. So my wife graduated with about $60,000 in debt. So at this point I have roughly 26,000 left on mine. She has 60,000 on hers and because she didn’t have FAFSA, those interest rates were in the sevens. So they were fairly high. In the spring of 2014 I got my real estate license. I had a, yes, I had a mentor who was actually my athletic director who had helped me. He had gained my trust. I told you there was some pitfalls really in coaching when you were 21, he had helped me grow so much as a person. And then as we gotten closer and closer, I realized his name’s on all these real estate sciences and he’s also flipping, he’s our AD, but he is also has his own LLC flipping homes and renting homes. And he pushed me into getting my license. So I studied for that, I got that in the spring of 2014 and I kind of got to work right away.
And I asked him if I could say his name, his name’s Josh Gibson and he’s down here in Southwest Washington and I owe him so much. He works for Berkshire Hathaway. And not only has he been an amazing realtor, but amazing friend and mentor, and I’m very grateful to have him in my corner. So, it’s the spring of 2014. I got my license and then that fall Taryn and I buy our first home. So this is of when it goes from just saving a bunch to investing, I guess. We buy our first home for $175,000, is about 4.7, 5% interest rate. We put down 5% on a conventional loan. I had saved up enough for that at this point. So, that’s where we’re at looking here.

Scott:
And what is your wife’s profession at that point?

Skyler:
Perfect. Yeah, thank you. We both work in the school district. She is a speech therapist, but she works in the school district. So she has the same salary penny for penny and same schedule as me, days off included. So we have from a very early age decided, “Our money’s going together.” I grew up in a house where the finances kind of crumbled and then she grew up in a house that was very, her dad’s a doctor, her mom’s a head nurse. They had a lot of money, but very, very smart with their money. And so I just knew that we both agreed we wanted money together. So, we definitely combined our forces.
And in the summer of 2014, right before buying the house, I’m going to sleep in the doghouse if I don’t say we got married, we got married in 2014. So let’s backtrack a second. And my wife wants me to tell you that our honeymoon was an all inclusive resort in Mexico that I got on Groupon of all places. So, that’s kind of how we roll. So yeah, so Taryn’s making about $44,000 at this point a year, and so am I, plus my $6,000 from coaching. So, we’re making about $96,000 as a couple. And I mean, we feel pretty good about that. The only thing kind of looming over our head is this debt. So at this point our debt, we’re sitting at about $96,000. There was a small car loan that she had to pay off as well. So we can do the student loans in that.

Scott:
Well, great. So we buy the house and is this a house, what kind of investment is this?

Skyler:
So we bought the house. I got my license, so I’m not paying a realtor to represent me. So I was able to negotiate a little bit to get that house at a little bit lower purchase price, just because I didn’t have to pay a buyer’s agent. It’s a two bedroom, one bath, small home. But as I mentioned before, Josh really pushed me to buy in good school districts. We could have bought a bigger house in a different school district and he just swore by buying in the school district, you’re always going to have a positive rental. People are going to always be desiring this neighborhood.
And so we definitely took a smaller home, plenty big enough for us, but we definitely, we’d go around and we would play house hunters on the weekend for entertainment. I had my realtor’s license, so I had the ability to go in homes. So our weekend fun would be going around to these different homes and touring them and seeing what was out there. And we ended up buying this home, two bedroom, one bath 900 square foot, garage. That was a really nice feature in the back and we’re in a good school district, so we just know that it’s a good investment down the road.

Scott:
Awesome.

Skyler:
That fall from spring, getting my license to December, I made about 25 to $30,000 in real estate, having my license on the side. Those were a couple deals that I did myself. Those were some, just showing homes for other realtors that I would get paid to go do, or co-write deals on. But I made about 25, 30 grand. So after taxes that money was put back into our savings account, because we had used that to purchase our first home.

Scott:
Awesome. So at the end of 2014 you’re starting to roll. You’ve got your house, you’re married, you’ve got two incomes. You’ve got 96,000 in debt, but you’re also getting a really good nice side hustle here. How do things progress from there? What do you do once you’ve built your savings?

Skyler:
Yeah, so we bought that home. It was October of 2014. And then in the spring there was a home a mile away that came on the market that I went to show my friend who was looking to buy. And I just knew as soon as I saw it that my wife was going to want it. It was this old 1918 Victorian home, kind of in a little bit of rough shape, perfect place downtown. And I told my friend, I was like, “Hey, I really want to help you with this house, but I hope you don’t like it, because my wife’s going to want it.” And so that money that I had made during real estate on the side had now parlayed into a new down payment.
And so we put an offer in and my wife wanted to cap it at 240. And I was like, “Well, we know there’s multiple offers. Let’s go 242 with the escalation clause.” Hoping that extra little cushion over 240 might be the difference. And sure enough, it was. The next highest offer was 240, which pushed our escalation clause at 242. And we got the call that we are now going to own a second home. So, this is June of 2015, so just seven months after buying our first home.

Scott:
Awesome. And you guys are not working in the summers? Or are you coaching or doing something else during that period of time as well?

Skyler:
No, I was, I’m can’t quite remember that summer. I was fairly new to coaching, so I was very intensive in our summer trainings and all that, trying to build a program. But in the future we travel, we do side things. We enjoy. Part of the story for me is that I have not ever felt like in my entire working life for the last 10 years I have sacrificed a job that I love or time with my family. And those are the two biggest things that if the show ends tomorrow, I don’t feel bad that I penny pinched or did this or that. Because I had time, the most invaluable currency that there is. I had that the whole time and I enjoyed it. And so I’m saving money. My wife’s right there with me alongside this journey. And we’re also traveling to 16 different countries and backpacking through Kauai and doing fun things throughout this time, and making it work.

Mindy:
Did you buy the second house as a rental or as a house to move into?

Skyler:
So we bought the second home for us to move into. It was going to be fixer upper, for sure. First home we’d probably put about $8,000 into it. Mostly cosmetic, mostly outdoor, whether it was curb appeal. I built a deck. I built a fireplace in the back. But the inside was, on that home was essentially it was so small, it was a perfect starter home. It was pretty compact and easy to deal with. This home was four bedrooms. It was 1,900 square feet. It was a 100 years old, it was beat up. And so we were able to qualify for an FHA loan on that. And we did a 3.5% down payment at a 4.25 interest rate for 242.
And so this home, we’d only lived in the other home for seven months, so obviously we’re going to have some capital gains if we sell. The market was still kind of on the rise at the point. And it was kind of easy to see it continuing that trend, especially in that district. So we held it and we rented it. So we rented that home for 1,450 and our monthly mortgage on it was about 1,125. So cash flowing a little bit, and we just put that money right back into savings account for repairs, but holding onto it for the appreciation of it.

Scott:
Awesome. So, now we’ve got our first property. We’ve got maybe a little bit of cash flow, maybe break even-ish, depending on maintenance and all that kind of stuff. And we’ve got a second one that we’re living in and you’re live-in flipping it sounds like?

Skyler:
Yeah. And so that’s kind of started our live-in flip. So we bought the home and we had a trip planned to Europe that summer and we were going to seven or eight, we just put backpacks on and we go and we share rooms and Airbnbs, we do hostels. We just make it work. We’ve camped on the coast of Kauai for $8 a night. We just go and we figure it out, and we try to get, it’s a quantity thing. We try to stay as long as we can for as cheap as we can, using our airline miles, et cetera. All those things and tricks that we’ve learned on BiggerPockets.
But anyways, we bought the home and our flight out was the same day we closed. So we close on the home. We put our stuff down. We never stay a night in the home and we fly to Europe. And the home had quite a bit of issues. We had $20,000 in seller credits to fix the foundation, which was leaking. The radon inspection came back fairly high, so we had to get a radon system put in. And we had the floors redone because they were pretty damaged. So why I say that is because I’m in Europe and we’ve never slept the night in this home and it’s a fixer upper. And at this point we feel pretty leveraged. We have 175,000 loan here, a $242,000 loan here. And we still got about 85 to 90,000 or about 85,000 in student loans at this point. And that wears on me.
So I remember sitting in an airport in Spain and I had this little napkin, and I was [inaudible 00:30:37]. I was just writing all of our debt on this napkin, just scribbling it, scribbling it down and then looking at our payments every month and then looking how much we make every month. And just trying to figure out, I wanted to be debt three by 30, but now we have two homes and it won’t happen until we’re 40 and there’s just no way this math. And I’m just stressed. I’m having nightmares that the house is crumbling at home, this new home that we bought, because there’s foundations getting fixed. So I’m having nightmares this house is crumbling while we’re in Spain. And now we have a home that is worth nothing. So my anxiety had now peaked. We had a good trip, but we felt very leveraged at this point. It works out in a second, but that’s where we’re at.

Mindy:
Spoiler.

Skyler:
Yeah, it does work out. So yeah, the envelope situation was a little chaotic. So we get home and right away I go to town. We still have a month left in summer. So my dad is extremely handy. He worked in HVAC for years. Taryn’s family has lived in old homes, they’re from the East Coast. So my wife’s dad’s helping me. My dad’s helping me. I’m just learning as we go. We’re tearing down walls, we’re redoing floors. We’re fixing this house up slowly. We get it to a point where we can refinance it out of the PMI. So we refinanced, I think it was 315 as a value of the home. So now we’re able to get out of PMI. So our mortgage payment went from 1,850 a month down to 1,400 a month. And that was the goal was to get out of that.

Scott:
Awesome.

Skyler:
Yeah, the refinance was a huge thing for us to get out of that PMI, get it down. So now we’re sitting at 1,400 bucks a month, which is very doable on our salaries. We’re pulling in about 6,500 month a month after tax at this point. And so we feel pretty good about this. We’re still paying off debt, about a 1,000 to $2,000 a month. 2016-

Scott:
How did the basketball team do that year?

Skyler:
Better. We’re getting better. We went to state for the first time in 52 years.

Mindy:
Oh wow.

Skyler:
So-

Scott:
In ’15, 2015?

Skyler:
2015 we were good, but not great, but we were getting better, yeah.

Scott:
All right.

Skyler:
Yeah. Maybe my lack of focus on it and the ability of other things was what led to it. Or I just wasn’t a knucklehead. When I started coaching, I was three years older than the seniors. So there wasn’t a lot of separation. And so you can imagine that was a recipe for some disaster. When we were living in this house and I was working on it, I was coaching. I was teaching. I was doing real estate. And obviously when we bought this new home, again, I didn’t have to have a buyer’s agent commission when I bought this last house. I was also driving Uber on Saturday and Sunday nights. It had just opened up in Portland. This was the beta test when Uber was brand new. And so I signed up, they only allowed a few hundred drivers at first and I was making 200 bucks a night on the weekends driving Uber.
And so that money was strictly kind of my way of making up for maybe having to pay a higher mortgage and not able to put as much money towards my student debt. So, I was driving Uber on the night and then I’d wake up and try to do an open house, try to show some homes with somebody, try to do something and stay involved in real estate. Because having my real estate license, we made some money doing it. At this point in 2016, I made about $45,000 in real estate selling homes. But I also was able to meet people. You rub shoulders with wealthy individuals or smart individuals and guys like Josh. And that was invaluable. Just like learning it.
Because I came from not a very well-off family. So being around these people, surrounding myself with these people, they were my financial circle. They tell you to, I didn’t actually regroup my closest friends, but I had my friend group and then I had my financial friend group, and a lot of them are involved in those real estate. So, I had made a good chunk of change from real estate. I was driving Uber, coaching and teaching, and we were doing pretty well. We decided in 2016 to sell the Weir Street house. And so this was our first real estate deal. We sold it for $240,000. We bought it for 175. I didn’t have to pay for a commission for an agent because I sold it myself. And we had a $50,000 check handed to us. This was after our capital gains. We had $50,000. I paid that right away to our accountant. And we took 50K and we were 27 years old and we had a choice.
We have 50K, we have $42,000 left in our student loans. We have old cars and we just pushed the button on Sallie Mae and hit pay off. And 27 years old, debt free from our college loans. All $96,000 gone. And it was that moment, writing that … A year earlier I was writing a napkin in Spain thinking it was going to take me until I was 40, and it worked out. And that was probably one of the best feelings ever. That was the most gratifying financial thing I may have ever done. And my wife was right there with me. We were toasting with a glass of whiskey and it felt great.

Scott:
That’s awesome. Did you take all of the receipts or whatever that you were talking about and put them on your filing cabinet in one big circ?

Skyler:
We just got one email and I have a screenshot of it, it’s actually. Yeah, I have a screenshot of it on my phone and it’s just one. They don’t really celebrate with you. They don’t like it so much.

Mindy:
Thanks for paying it off. That lift though.

Scott:
That’s a buck.

Mindy:
We paid off my husband’s student loans back when you had to write a check and send it to them in the mail. And writing that last check was so happy. Like, “I’m done. This is the last one. I never want to hear you again. I never want to hear your name again.”

Skyler:
Yeah, we felt great. And right at that same time, so now we have that rental sold, so we just have our current home. I’ve been fixing it up constantly with the help of many people I should probably acknowledge. But we got a roommate that lived in our basement. So our basement was equipped to had a little bedroom and a bathroom and a little TV area. And so we kind of fixed that up a little bit and we had a friend come live with us and he paid 500 bucks a month to live down there. So now our $1,400 payments down to $900. And so now we’re really back to a nice living where we can pay off debt or save. Excuse me, now we’re saving. And we just felt really comfortable. So right now we’re saving it.
We just did this whole, we bought a house, we’re fixing it up. We just had some success. And obviously, if you look at our story in the years it doesn’t take a genius to realize the market was appreciating every year since we’ve owned homes. So, we are very fortunate and lucky. Whereas I also believe if we weren’t found another way to make money or make it work, that’s just kind of who we are, but it would be really naive to not think that the real estate market was on a rise. It wasn’t that hard to sell homes for profits. It was just a matter of taking the risk to get one in the first place and then build off that versus sitting on it.

Scott:
And you fixed up the properties yourself and added a lot of sweat equity it sounds like?

Skyler:
Yeah.

Scott:
We can acknowledge your luck and give you some credit for being very intentional in hustling here for a very long period of time.

Skyler:
Yes. That first home, not as much work, but the second home was, we probably put of our own money 20 to 30 grand into it. And we redid every square inch of the home. It wasn’t left untouched. So, that was a lot of hard work. And without kids, that was a lot easier than where we’re potentially at now. We just kind of cruised. We went on some trips. We did like that Kauai trip where we were backpacking and we got a beach permit for $8 and we just called it our own little resort and we could open up, we literally slept on the beach. And that was just kind of the style, that’s how we vacation, and we had the time to do it.
We’re now 28 and debt free. And I had gone through a lot with coaching and teaching and being in one town and really grinding. And my wife stuck with me through all of that. And so we wanted to change and my wife made it a deal with me that after five years in this town that we would try something different. She wouldn’t marry me unless I committed to leaving this town at some point, just because she’s moved a lot and didn’t want to be stationary. And then sure enough, that fifth year comes around and she looks at me and goes, “You promised me we’d move.” And I was like, “But we got all this going for us. We have this great house. We just finished remodeling.” She goes, “You promised.” So I made a deal that I could explore coaching in college if we would move. So I found a gig coaching at a college as an assistant coach that paid peanuts, but because we’d set ourselves up financially and debt free and she had her job and was getting paid well that we could afford to move to this new town.
I would work for peanuts. We would rent a house, which at first just killed us to our bones. But it made sense for the time being. We rented a home, she worked, she was making it this time, in the State of Washington teachers had renegotiated our contract. So now she’s making around $52,000 a year salary. So we have enough money to rent this house.

Scott:
And this is 2017?

Skyler:
This is 2017. And so before we left we had to decide, do we want to rent this home or do we want to sell this home? And I had redone the home for us to live in. I had done butcher block countertops. I had done tile flooring. I did not build it, custom made vanities. I didn’t build it to be rented. I kind of built it to be lived in, but it looked good. So we decided, “Let’s sell.” And so now we’re selling the second home and we go to list it. And Josh actually helped us list it this time around just because of the chaos of us moving. We kind of split the commission up, but he did me a big solid and put his name on the sign and helped negotiate while we were planning this move. So we list the home for 335. We had just bought it for 242 two years ago. There’s a theme, every two years, we’ve never stayed at home longer than two. Once those capital gains kick out, we leave.
So we list it. And 335, tons of traffic, tons of offers, escalation clauses. And so Sunday rolls around and our highest offer was at 365. We’re stoked. Can’t believe it’s $30,000 over asking. A couple goes, “Hey, can we see the home?” And at this point I’m exhausted. I’m like, “Josh, I just kind want to be done.” He goes, “Let’s let them look at it. What’s it going to hurt? We’ll tell them you’re looking at offers in an hour and they need to put their best foot forward.” And so he does it and they go tour the home. We’re out for a hike and he calls me and he goes, “You’ll never guess what?” And I was like, “What?” He goes, “They just offered you $400,000.” And I was like, “No way.”
And I was like, part of me as a realtor was mad. Because I knew what they were doing. They’re putting their foot in the door to get it, waiting for the appraisal, and then potentially renegotiating back down. So part of me was a little upset because I didn’t think the home would appraise for 400. It was maybe worth 325, 335 anyways. So I was a little frustrated, but also excited. So we, fast forward, the appraiser was from a city nearby, not from our city, from a large metropolitan city. And he counted the basement with no egress. He counted it as a bedroom. So he put a fifth bedroom on the house when it didn’t have one. And messed up, he counted the full square footage of the basement, all these little things that made the home. And so the appraisal came back, $400,000. And so we continued through with that deal and we closed on that house and we made, we netted, obviously we invested some of our money to it. We netted about $132,000.

Mindy:
I’m sorry, I’m sorry. You netted 132,000 tax free dollars?

Skyler:
Correct.

Mindy:
You forgot the tax free.

Skyler:
Yeah, tax free. No, Uncle Sam and I have been best of friends still. We’re still getting along. And so, the importance of this money was that my wife and I have always wanted to adopt. My mom was adopted. Her birth mother had her at 15 and put her up for adoption. My grandparents adopted her. My grandparents were like my saving grace as a child. They were the most kind, sweet people ever. And they’re why I have a good head on my shoulders. And my other set of grandparents had adopted my aunt. And I just have always had a heart for adoption and Taryn and I have been together since high school, so it’s a conversation we had many times. But adoption’s very expensive. And so part of reading be on this podcast was just kind using real estate or other investments to fund your adoption is a message I’d really like to share, because it’s overwhelming. The average of domestic adoption United States is $52,000.

Scott:
Wow.

Skyler:
So a lot of people don’t realize that there’s other ways to adopt. There’s lots of ways, international, domestic, foster care, and there’s lots of kids in need, and all of those, one is not more significant than the other. But we wanted to adopt. And when Josh sent me my net sheet, I said, “If it hits this number, we’re going to use that money to adopt. We don’t need it. Our cars are fine. We’re going to use that money to adopt.” And when the appraisal came back, I said, “How did the appraisal do?” And he sent me a picture of a baby emoji. That’s all he sent. And that’s how we knew that it hit that number.
And it was just like, it just felt like the world had been so good to us. And we paid off our debt. Now we’re here at 28 years old with the funds to adopt, which we were stressed out that we would never be able to start our family through adoption. And I’m going to a new town to start coaching college. So, I thought our financial journey was kind of done. And now we were just going to live this sedentary, normal life. You get your paychecks, you kind of live paycheck to paycheck. I don’t know. I just kind of thought it was done and we’d hit the jackpot.

Scott:
So, we have $130,000 check, we have no debt whatsoever it sounds like in your whole life at this point, and you got the ability to adopt. What happens next with the new town, 2017?

Skyler:
Yeah, going through it quicker. The job at college was fun. Wasn’t the best. I just couldn’t get through it financially that I wasn’t making good money. So we adopted our daughter in 2018. We’d gone through that process and we got our daughter. In 2018, one week we adopted our daughter, we signed on a new home in our new city, and I got a new job coaching and teaching high school in a different town. So, now we’re both back to making money teaching. We have our daughter and we’ve bought a new home, a new fixer upper, another 67-year-old home. We live in this home for two years. During that two years we decide to max out our HSAs. We decide to match out our 457s, and our Roth.
So my whole point with all of that, and I know you guys have covered those with a lot of other guests was we wanted over a $100,000 of net worth protected in assets that if anything went bad, we lost our jobs. Anything happened to one of us that we had access to that. Not only that, we were tax deferring all of our money. So for a year and a half we would come in at about 22,000, $30,000 of actual taxable income because we’d been maxing out all of those accounts.

Scott:
How’d the basketball team do at the new school?

Skyler:
We were pretty good. I got lucky, I got lucky, I got lucky. Or maybe I’m learning how to coach along the way. So at this point I had taken this house down to the studs in most of the rooms and redone them all. I’d fallen into a shop teaching job at this point. So my skills were accumulating being a shop teacher. And 2020, obviously COVID hit. At this point we’d built up the HSA. We’d built up the Roths. We’ve built up our 457s. And we were at home a lot because of COVID, teaching from online. So I sped up the homework and we decided to sell our home that we had just finished building, or sorry, re-flipping. And it hit two year mark. So we got right out of capital gains. We bought that home for $355,000. And then we turned around and sold it for $516,000.
We took that money and we saved a lot of it, and we adopted our son. We paid for that home flip for our second adoption. So now we have our kids, our family, we’re still debt free. We take that and we finally buy a house that we don’t have to fix. And we bought a home in the county with five acres on it for $512,000. Right now my wife and I are getting, on Saturday we are leaving to Indonesia to teach internationally where our money is taxed, is not taxed at all. Our home is paid for. Our children’s daycare is paid for, which is a $3,000 a month expense where we currently live. And we will save 80% savings rate, which will roughly be about $80,000 every year.
We hope to use that money to vest in real estate back in the States while we’re living abroad for those few years. We kept the home that we bought during COVID on five acres. And we are renting that, two friends at cost of mortgage, because we just wanted to know that we had the safety net of coming home from internationally if we wanted to come home.

Scott:
That’s amazing. So we’ve done several flips to this point, or two flips?

Skyler:
Three flips.

Scott:
Three flip, one was the … So you have property number one that you bought for 175 and sold a few years later for two?

Skyler:
240. Yeah, yeah.

Scott:
Okay. And then property number two, which is your prior house. And then property number three, which was a $160,000 gain. That was another live-in flip. And now we have the home five acres and we’re traveling the world sounds like very shortly.

Skyler:
Yeah.

Scott:
Next week, week after?

Mindy:
Two days.

Skyler:
Saturday.

Scott:
Saturday, that’s what it is, yeah. Well, good then we got the podcast there before the move.

Mindy:
How long do you plan on being abroad?

Skyler:
Yeah, so the average family stays eight years. Our contract is two years, but like I said, the savings rate is so high. You’re about an hour from Bali. You get a cook and a cleaner and a driver. And so we’re pretty excited. And I mean, there’s obviously downfalls living abroad, but we are just open to it. We’ll see, our job in the state is held for two years, so we can take two years there and still come back to our jobs here if we want. So, we’re just going to kind of wait and see how we enjoy it.

Scott:
Now, let me ask you this, when I’ve thought about, “Hey, how would a teacher go about achieving financial independence?” I thought, “Yeah, getting your agent license, and then buying a property, fixing it up in the summer, working at school.” It sounds like that was sort of what you did, but it was really more of an all out grind all year round for several years to get to that. What advice would you have for someone who’s getting started as a teacher to repeat some of the things you’ve done?

Skyler:
Yeah, I think that as much as I love my profession, there’s a lot of victimhood in it of like, “I’m a teacher, I don’t make enough. So I’m not going to be able to do these things.” And it’s much more of a perspective of you have time, and what are you going to do with that time? You have time off in the summers and breaks. So how do you ever utilize that? Whether it’s a second job, you’re making things with your hands, you’re doing some type of craft. I don’t know what that is for everybody, but utilizing that hustle and that time to make things happen and to not be afraid to ask questions. They don’t do a great job teaching you about 457s and HSAs. They just kind of throw you it and say, “Here’s your pension.” We have a pension to fall back on too when we retire. And that’s like our safety safety net. And so really asking questions and then utilizing that time that you have is probably the biggest steps.

Scott:
How do you think, you’re a coach in there, and therefore you might have more interaction with at least some parents than maybe other teachers to a certain degree. It seems like you did a really good job of using the network that you could create both as a coach and as a teacher to exploit opportunities? How do you think about that or how someone else could repeat that?

Skyler:
Yeah, I think the school district that you work in is a big choice. The demographics of that school district might lead to different opportunities in the network. And one thing that my wife wanted to be mentioned too, as a teacher is you can have the hack of living in a cheaper area. If you’re priced out of that nice neighborhood and that district that you want, we were lucky to fit into it. But if you teach in that school district, your children can go to that school district. So for a lot of teachers, you might have to live in a more rural area, but if you work in that nice school district, your kids can attend school there. They’re going to network with those kids and their families. And you’re giving them the opportunity to also benefit from being in that school district, even though you may not live in its boundaries

Scott:
Self-education. During this period, are you doing any of that? Are you reading books, learning about money? Is there a background of self-education or an aha moment that’s triggering at any point in that journey from something you read, listened to, or otherwise learned about? Sounds like Josh, for example, was a big influence.

Skyler:
Josh was a big example, but you only have so much time in the day and a mentor wants you to do it on your own a little bit too. So for me it was BiggerPockets Real Estate at the time was the only podcast you guys had. It was just, I’m a big input equals output person. So the more you take in, like I said, 15 to 30 minutes every day of some type of financial input, real estate, whatever, honing your craft, owning your own business. I was listening to podcasts, listening to eBooks, talking to friends, putting myself, in my real estate business I was putting myself in networking circles with mortgage loans and life insurance people. And just figuring out how other people did it, because I was just smart enough to follow the path that was there.

Scott:
Awesome. And then, how did you stay on track with all of this stuff? I think a danger is, “I’m going to drive for Uber. I’m going to get my license. I’m going to buy a property, I’m going to fix it up. I’m going to travel to Europe. I’m going to travel to Kauai.” How did you stay consistent across this long period of time towards these goals?

Skyler:
I would say, obviously I’m a pretty big Excel maniac. So I had a pretty big running tab Excel sheet that kept everything financially for numbers engaged. But I had, my family that had lost everything in 2008 and I just had a burning desire to set a path for my kids like my dad did for me that was better. And so we just had goals. It helped that I had a partner that was so consistent and reliable and I’d been with since high school and we knew each other so well. And like I said, it didn’t feel like a punishment. It was a game. I was an former athlete, so it was a game. How am I going to get there? And I’m just so used to, I’m going to outwork somebody for something. I’m just, I’m not going to lose. I’m just going to work. I’m going to go Uber, okay? Then I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that. And I made it a game and I just wanted to win the game.

Mindy:
I think a lot of people on this path are super competitive and they have to win.

Skyler:
And I would say that there’s flaws with that too, though. If I lose sight of anything, it’s like time with my family, time investing in my own mental and physical health. And so there’s definitely a consequence to being that intense on certain things or impulsive and kind of bouncing around. So, that’s where having a partner that can kind of ground you is really important. And for us traveling grounded us. And that’s why we pursued that and then time together, for sure.

Scott:
Well, what a phenomenal story. Thanks for sharing this with us. I mean, wow. A little of luck, but a lot of hustle and a lot of great moves that you’re able to parlay one after the other into bigger and bigger wins here, until you have this incredible option here, optionality in your life. Would you mind giving us a quick picture of your assets before we go into the famous four? You’ve got the home here and you have some 401(k)s. Do you have a cash reserve or how do you think about your overall financial position today?

Skyler:
Oh, yeah. So for us right now the way we’ve kind of fallen where we’re at is we have our home that is rented. We bought it for 512 right now. We almost sold it when we moved, but we decided to keep it kind of a safety net for our own mental, just have something to come home to. It’s worth about 800,000 right now.

Scott:
Wow.

Skyler:
Yeah, we did really lucky on that. Just the acreage close to town. We have HSA accounts, HSAs, 457s. And then obviously if we wanted to withdraw from our contributions with our Roth, which has always been a safety net in the back of my mind, nothing I want to ever do. Don’t freak out if you’re listening to this, just knowing it’s there. We have about 85,000 there between those accounts. And then we have enough in our savings account to purchase a rental home at about 20% down in our area if we choose to do that in the next few months.
And then obviously we’re heading into this ability to save quite a bit of money over the next few years in Indonesia, which is kind of a cash reserve that will, kind of still playing around with how we want to use that, but debt free. And I’d say the biggest investment of all that is we have two beautiful, amazing children that came into our lives because of this story. One from Florida, one from Nevada. And it’s the most amazing, amazing relationships that we’ve ever had with anyone. Obviously with them and their birth parents, and all of that came from this hustle. And that is the best part of the whole story in my opinion,

Scott:
That is the best part of the story. Well, phenomenal job. I can’t wait to see how things kind of go for you the next couple of years. And look forward to catching up when you get back from Indonesia.

Skyler:
Thank you, guys.

Scott:
We ran a little long today, so we’re going to have to skip most of the famous four, except for the most important question, which is, what is your favorite joke to tell at parties?

Skyler:
I know you guys get this all the time. I had more anxiety about this than the whole podcast. And my kids are young enough that they laugh at anything I say. Did you hear about the kidnapping at school today?

Scott:
I did not.

Skyler:
Yeah, it’s fine. He woke up.

Scott:
Oh.

Mindy:
Oh.

Scott:
Excellent. Use that with your players?

Skyler:
Yeah, and I don’t have good jokes. So if you’re listening home and you cringe, that’s A-okay. I’m more on the pun side of things.

Mindy:
Well, Skyler, thank you so much for sharing your story today. This was a lot of fun. And you’re right, kids really do make it all worthwhile. I’m so excited for you and your family. Your trip sounds amazing. Two years in Indonesia, two years minimum in Indonesia. Sounds fabulous. And I’m going to come visit you.

Skyler:
Deal.

Mindy:
So, shoot me a line. Okay, awesome. Skyler, we will talk to you soon. Thank you. All right, that was Skyler and his super amazing story. Scott, I do feel like a slacker. How about you?

Scott:
Yeah, I mean, it’s just amazing. I will say, when I started my career, I was making $48,000 as an analyst with that, as a financial analyst. And I could see so many parallels in those first couple of years with Skyler’s journey to a certain degree with that. What’s amazing, I think is the way he’s used real estate. In conjunction the networking opportunities that came with his profession to really leverage that those initial results into huge outcomes over the last 10 years. Whereas I had to join a startup, for example, I’m comparing myself. Sometimes you can’t help doing that when you’re thinking about folks who started around the same year on their journeys.

Mindy:
I love that he is taking advantage of the Section 121 tax loophole. I’m doing little air quotes, for those of you who aren’t watching the video, the section 121 tax loophole that says, “If you live in a property as your primary residence and own it for two of the last five years, you pay no capital gains taxes on any gains up to … You pay no taxes on any gains up to $250,000 if you’re single, and up to $500,000 if you are married.” I hope to pay taxes on one of my flips sometime, because that would mean I’m making a lot of money. But this is such a great way to, it’s another way to hack your housing. And look at what he’s doing with his net gains, parlaying it into more properties and being able to fund what he really, really wants, and that is to adopt children.

Scott:
Well, what a wonderful story. Awesome success story. Can’t wait to see how the next couple years go for him, and we’ll have to catch up with him when he returns from Indonesia.

Mindy:
That would be awesome. Okay, Scott, should we get out of here?

Scott:
Let’s do it.

Mindy:
From episode 331 of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. He is Scott Trench, and I am Mindy Jensen saying, “Until then, penguin.”

 

David:
This is the BiggerPockets podcast show 654.

Amy:
I’m getting the commitment, but I’m still building rapport and trust. I’ll explain to you how the flow of money works. But right now, don’t even worry about it. We’ll cross that bridge when or if we get there. Once somebody invests with you, and they process the wire, that’s a step for the FACT framework, the transactions piece, then we really want to take a step back and look at how we nurture our network. How do we follow up with our private money lenders so that two things happen? Number one, they reinvest, and number two, they increase their investment amount.

David:
What’s going on, everyone? This is David Greene live from the Smokey Mountains. Actually, it’s not live to you, but it’s live to me. I’m here looking at cabins, and checking on some of the ones that I just bought, and getting to do a BiggerPockets podcast from the area. I’m joined by fellow Smokey Mountain investor and my co-host for the podcast, Rob Abasolo. Rob, how’s it going today?

Rob:
Hey, man. I am barely making it through the day. You know what I mean?

David:
I totally understand. I made a joke on Instagram the other day about this is a bear market, and it got quite the response. Apparently, dad jokes are making a comeback here.

Rob:
Oh yeah. They’ve been popular since 1972. I don’t know why that was the invention of them, but they’ve been big for a while. I actually done some research on this topic now that I’m a father.

David:
I just didn’t know they were big outside of dads. People that are not dads are really liking dad jokes these days.

Rob:
You know what, it’s cool to be a dad, man. It is so cool. You should try it sometime.

David:
You got dad bods. You got dad jokes.

Rob:
I will hopefully not have a dad bod in the next couple of months, man. I’ve been hitting the bike every single day. Little by little, I’m chipping away. I’m going from dad bod to-

David:
Hard to make something to rhyme with that on the spot, isn’t it?

Rob:
It is. I didn’t really think that out.

David:
Dad bod.

Rob:
I usually practice my jokes in the mirror.

David:
From dad bod to rad bod.

Rob:
There we go, rad bod. Rob bod, how about that?

David:
Thank you, Producer Eric. Eric’s one of those guys, our producer for this show, that you never would think is in the hip hop. Then you’re at a karaoke night one day, and he steps up, and he just starts freestyle rapping, and knows every single word to some KRS-One song that most people who just heard me say that have no idea who I’m talking about. He’s that guy that always surprises you, so thank you for that, Eric. Let’s get to today’s show. Thank you guys for hanging out through that semi-ridiculous intro we just had.
In today’s show, Rob and I are going to be interviewing Amy Mahjoory. Amy has a four-part system that helps raise money in a very simple way that is very effective. We’re going to start off today’s show with a treat for you guys. Josiah listened to the first interview that we did with Amy, put her system into practice, and found himself with someone that was willing to let him borrow money right off the bat. He explains what he did, how he did it, and how it worked out.
Then Rob and Amy asked him some question about what’s going on. It is a fantastic example of how simple this system is when you work it. Rob, what are some of your favorite parts of today’s show?

Rob:
I raised a decent amount of money. I’m raising money now for a fund that I’m putting together on a motel. Honestly, I don’t think that you can ever stop improving on how you raise capital. I’ve been raising capital now for probably two or three years. My style to do that has really evolved over the years. Even listening to this episode today, I’m like, “Oh, I can really see how it affects my fundraising game for the better to really just start putting an actual system so that you can think of fundraising a little bit more in a linear progression.”
Because for me, my thoughts are always in the ether. I’m always the ad lib guy that’s like, “Let’s go with the flow.” But having the direct system on how to approach getting money from investors, I think, is going to be super valuable for everyone listening at home.

David:
My two cents, the real estate investing space is changing rapidly every year. I mean, if you just look in the last 10 years how much it’s changed, it’s wildly different. There’s a lot of reasons why, but I think the biggest reason is that real state investing used to be a good old boys club. You needed to have a mentor in the city you worked at that knew how to be an investor that could teach you the ropes. This was… It was like jujitsu before the Gracie’s made it popular. If you didn’t know Gracie, you weren’t learning jujitsu.
Well, it’s different now. This is one of the biggest podcasts on all of iTunes. There’s tons of people on social media that are sharing all the information. Real estate investors like to talk. This is not a place where everyone keeps their secrets. Information is everywhere. That increases competition after these assets, and it’s one of the reasons that even though the market is slowing down, we’re entering into a bear market, as you guys will hear about later in today’s show, there’s still a lot of competition for the best assets.
That’s because it’s much easier to own them than it ever was before. You need to get into the private money game, whether you are actually raising money to buy these assets, or you are lending your money to someone else to make a passive return. There is a space for both people. My opinion, the next evolution of real estate investing is going to be crowdfunding made easy. NFTs are going to play a role in this. We interviewed Ryan Pineda, and he talked about that on the episode that we did with him.
I’m raising more money. Rob’s raising money also, but we’re doing it in 100% different ways, so we’re appealing to a different type of investor, who’s looking for a different risk reward profile. I would highly recommend if you’re someone who knows real estate investing is going to be a part of your future that you listen to episodes like this, want to pay a lot of attention, because these skills will be huge in helping you scale your portfolio faster.
Before we get into the show with Amy, today’s quick tip is head over to biggerpockets.com/reshow, where Amy, our guest today, has some free information that you can claim for yourself. That’s biggerpockets.com/reshow. The RE is for real estate, but it would spell reshow, and claim your free stuff today. Rob, any last words before we get to the show?

Rob:
If you have ever been interested in learning how to defend yourself against a bear, then I would definitely stick around until the very end of the episode, because we give some very tactical tips on that one.

David:
Little known fact, the B in BJJ actually stands for bear. It’s a misnomer that it’s Brazilian, but that’s not true. It was developed in the rainforest of Brazil, where people were being killed every single day, and the Russians actually copied it. Now, they have their kids wrestling bears for skills. We get into that at the end of the show, so it’s not enough to make a lot of money. In real estate, you’ve also got to be able to protect that money, especially from hungry bears.

Rob:
And pretend like you know about bears, so that’s always important.

David:
Amy Mahjoory, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. So lovely to have you today. How have you been?

Amy:
I’ve been great. Thank you for having me. Excited to catch up with you guys today.

David:
Yes. Now, I’m going to have you recap what we talked about in the first two episodes where we interviewed you. But before we do that, we actually have a guest who heard the episode, and put your advice into practice, and it worked out very well. Josiah, welcome to the show.

Josiah:
Thank you, David. I am a small business owner out of Southern Oregon. I have a pool and spa cleaning and repair business. This business gives me the unique opportunity to get in with people I might not otherwise have access to. Then lately, I’ve been trying to work that into possibly people to partner with or invest with. So basically, lately, I started implementing the four-second power pitch. I did this by building rapport over time with my clients. I would talk to them about being in real estate.
A little backstory with our real estate, my wife and I, she’s my partner. We have our first home that we bought that we turned into our first rental. That was in 2021, or no, sorry, 2020. Then in 2021, we cashed out, refinanced that. Then the beginning of this year, we’ve done two deals so far. We’re definitely rookie investors, but we’re starting to see some momentum. Our second deal was actually an out-of-state property that my wife and I did after reading your book on Out of State Investing. Then we ended up buying that one, all cash, refinancing it, and then using that money into a tiny home Airbnb that we did on our property that we own, that we live on here in Southern Oregon.
Obviously, I got that inspiration from Rob, and following him on his Robuilt channel. We just finished that project May 18th. All along the way, I’ve been talking with my clients about what it is we’re doing, and just building rapport with them, and building myself up as not just a pool guy, but also a real estate investor who is implementing different strategies, and growing consistently. When I’m building rapport with my clients and stuff, most of them have… On their pool guy, they have big houses.
Basically, when I meet these clients initially, they’re clients with big houses and pools most of the time. I’ll try to build rapport with them by complimenting their house first. I’ll say, “Hey, this is a beautiful house you got, and a lovely pool. What is it that you do that lets you afford a house like this?” I’ll ask them questions about themselves, and what it is they do. That also gives me information on, what their interests are, or if they’re business owners as well, and then helps qualify them in my mind while I’m also trying to build rapport with them.
I would say, “Hey, how do you afford such a lovely house and pool?” This process takes a long time. It’s not like it’s something that happens overnight when I’m building rapport with them. I’ll often see them intermittently. It could be due, and so when they do that, it helps me build rapport with them and a relationship, but it also at the same time helps qualify them as a potential partner in the future, and if there’s someone, I think, that I’d be able to work with or not. So, whenever I see them, I always try to update them on what it is I’m doing or what it was we last talked about, and then jump ahead to where we’re at now with those projects.
The tiny home has been the biggest thing for us. A lot of people have been super interested in that. Obviously, they’re really trendy and stuff, but we’ve had phenomenal success with that. We’ve set it up to the highest level we possibly could, and because of that, it’s been booked out about 95% to 99% of the time since when we first launched it on May 18th. When I tell them stuff like that, I mean, we’re getting about a 60% return on our investment right now, and they’re just blown away by that fact. So, lately when I talk about that, I was able to caveat it into possibly getting partners or private money investors lately.
I did that simply by asking them. They would say, “Hey, that’s phenomenal what you’re doing.” I’d just be like, “Hey, we’re working on another project right now where I might be taking on private investors. Is just sitting back and collecting income from real estate something that you might be interested in? You wouldn’t have to manage it at all, or do any extra work. We’d do all the leg work for you.” I’ve done that with four or five of my clients now, and I’ve had really good success.

Rob:
That’s amazing. I was wondering what your parlay was, because I know for Amy, she talks about going out, and you meet someone. You say, “I helped someone get double digit returns in real estate,” because you’re introducing each other, and you’re like, “I don’t know what you do. What do you do? I do this and that.” Obviously, if you’re the owner of this company, that part is that they know what you do. So, how have you worked on your transitions? Does it change from client to client, or do you think you have a pretty streamlined pitch at this point?

Josiah:
I mean, I’m new to implementing the strategy, so it’s definitely not streamlined. I work on it as I go, but it definitely changes a little bit client to client depending on what their exact scenario is. This has been such a great strategy though, because it is something to get your foot in the door, and open up people to conversations in the future. Then it just opens their mind a little bit. Then later on, I hope to be able to meet with them, go through and dive in a little bit deeper.
I guess that’s what I’m looking for help with next. Like, what are the next steps? Amy, maybe you could help me with this, but as I try to transition them from just opening their mind up to this idea, and them liking it to actually guiding them.

Amy:
Josiah is the perfect investor who he said earlier is a part-time investor. He’s a great example of someone who just he trusts in the system. He’s just following a script. He implemented it. Even if he had any fears of how to follow up, he’s like, “I got this. I’ll figure that out later.” You guys saw him commenting in the chat box earlier for what do I say next. This is what I keep telling people. You guys, this really does work. It’s been test and measured for 10 years. It’s a great strategy to just get your foot in the door, and then see where the conversation leads you.

Rob:
You’re just getting started. You start putting yourself out there. You’re practicing and perfecting and still ironing out your pitch here. You actually had some success, and you had someone that actually they wanted to work with you. Tell us about the deal that you’re going to be putting together, and how you’re going to be using the funding to make that deal come to life.

Josiah:
I’m actually looking at a deal local to me in Shady Cove, Oregon. It’s a Kenny property. It’s on about four and a half acres right on the edge of town here. It’s a pretty forested area, but it’s got two tax lots and three little cottages on the property right now. What I’m trying to do is remodel these cottages, get them up to rent specs for short-term rentals, and then we add a couple of RV pads, and do a couple more of the tiny homes with the decks around it, and make it just like this little camping community of tiny homes in RV or cottages.
Then maybe because it is four and a half acres, and there’s a nice, lightly sloped hillside do a glamping setup up on the hillside with decks and stuff that come off of it in the future. That’s the ultimate dream. Luckily, this property is off market right now, and so the seller is open to seller financing as well, which is phenomenal. So, it’s just trying the pieces together with everything, and try to figure out basically what the next steps are. I mean, should I focus on maybe finding money for the deal, or trying to get it more structured before I try to raise money for it, and where should I go from here?

Rob:
Awesome, man. Well, it sounds like you hit a home run on your first set of pitches here, not only because you actually were able to secure financing from a private investor, but because it’s a seller finance deal, which these days, I mean, that’s going to be the best interest rate you’re probably going to find on the market. But I’m curious, Amy, since you are the fundraising royalty here on the pod, well, how would you approach this situation?

Amy:
This is a great problem to have. You’re putting together this deal. Definitely don’t wait until you have finalized the deal. We always want to be proactively raising capital as we are looking for leads. So Josiah, you’re off to a great start. Continue those conversations. At this point, you’ll want to follow up, even if it’s just a high-level overview about the deal, but start educating your audience on, “This is what’s in it for me. This is what’s in it for you, and I can help you with this. Here’s what it looks like to invest with us.”
Everyone is so into the short-term rental game now. They love it, the creative ways of basically vacationing, so I think your audience will love that strategy as well.

Josiah:
That’s great. As far as structuring the deal goes, do you think I should look at, because it is my first deal with partners, maybe trying to make it a little higher incentivization to get people to work with me until I have a more solid track record, or do you think my track record that I have so far just personally is probably good enough?

Amy:
I think it’s the latter of the two. This is such a common question. A lot of people will want to increase what they’re offering, because of their lack of experience or limited experience, or maybe because of the fear of the unknown. I’m going to go straight into coaching mode and say, “Hey, you don’t need to offer more.” We can talk about what that offer looks like. You’ve already got a great amount of experience. I mean, you have a portfolio you’re starting to build at your clientele.
I mean, technically, you’re in the real estate industry anyways, because of the service that you provide from a pooling aspect. I think as long as you are able to convey your message clearly, and you have a solid deal, and you know your numbers, you’ll be fine with your current offer.

Rob:
I agree with that. I would say don’t negotiate against yourself unless you have to. That’s honestly the biggest mistake I’ve ever made with partnerships or investors is negotiating myself with some really juicy terms. I think, you go in with the terms that you want, and have in your back pocket what you’re actually willing to do. I actually do believe that you should have some flexibility, because whether or not you make money on your first deal with an investor from your end, I think, the experience is a lot more valuable working with an investor, understanding how to manage timelines and budgets.
Don’t give it away for free, but be flexible if they push back a little bit. I would even just make sure that you have answers to all the different questions that they’re going to ask, because with the type of property and the projects that you have going on, there will be some possible roadblocks with permitting and making sure that everything is head to toe completely legit from a permitting and a conditional use permit and all that stuff standpoint. Make sure that you know your stuff, because the more you know, and the more of an expert that you can present yourself as to the investor, the easier it will be to talk them down the ledge a bit, and get the terms that you want.

Josiah:
Thank you very much for all your help in answering my questions, and explaining this to me. I’ll keep you guys updated on how it goes. I hope to see you around.

Rob:
Awesome, man. Good luck with everything.

David:
All right. We wanted to bring Josiah in so that you guys could see that this works. If you work, it wasn’t too long after hearing this information that he put it into play, and now he’s got himself a pretty cool opportunity that it’s safe to say wouldn’t have if he wouldn’t have done this. Amy, first off, thank you very much for your help to our community, and helping Josiah. If you wouldn’t mind, could you just give us a recap on what we talked about on the first two episodes where we discussed your system?

Amy:
Sure. Absolutely. We kicked it off with common fears and objections when it comes to raising capital, which are all very common, whether it’s we don’t have the time, or we don’t have the experience. Even Josiah touched on that, right? We talked about the importance of as you get out there and build your foundation, you want to be very confident in who you are and what you’re doing, because if our audience, in this case, private money lenders, sense any timidness or uncertainty in our voice, they’re not going to invest with us. That really led us into taking action.
What does that four-second power pitch look like, and who do we start to connect with? Really, the answer there was anyone. The minute we leave our house, everyone we encounter is a prospective private money lender, so what does that script look like? Step one from here on out is targeting anyone and everyone with cash or assets collecting dust, and dropping that four-second power pitch on them. If they don’t ask you what you do, so you can drop the four-second power pitch, then why don’t we ask them what they do, so the law of reciprocity finds its way back to us, and we can continue with that conversation.

Rob:
Yes. Basically, you are asking them, “Hey, what do you do?” Just in hopes that from a general, what’s it called, courtesy that they’ll at least pretend to be interested in what you do, and then you actually hit them with the pitch, and then they are actually interested, right? Is that the idea, or if you have a good connection with them at the very beginning, then you can just really lead with that?

Amy:
Absolutely, and it’s all of the above. Now, there are going to be people that we’re going to choose to target who we have a preexisting relationship with. Those conversations will be a little less scripted and more casual. We’re still going to treat it like a business though, whereas those who we don’t have a relationship with, on the last episode, we talked about converting our Uber drivers into private money lenders or people at airports or on airplanes or sporting events.
In that case, we want to target them, and be strategic, and hope that if they don’t ask us what we do, that when we start that conversation, it ends up leading down that direction.

Rob:
Definitely. This is like at the end of every episode, when I’m like, “Dave, where can people find you on social media?” Because I want him to ask me that back, so I can plug my social medias, but then he forgets half the time, and I’m like, “Come on, man.”

David:
Or did I forget? Perhaps I know what you’re doing.

Rob:
Exactly. Amy, can you clarify for us really quickly what is the F, and then what is the A specifically? I know we’ve got an acronym going here.

Amy:
Sure. The FACT framework, the F is for foundation, so how do we build our foundation? Make sure we understand who we are, what we’re doing. We want to know our role. Why are we doing this? What’s in it for us? What’s in it for them, our audience? The A is for action. Now that we’ve built our foundation, we’re confident in what we’re doing, and why we’re doing it. We’re going to get out there and start taking action, and start building rapport with anyone and everyone. It starts with that four-second power pitch.

Rob:
Awesome. Can you take us through what we’re going to be talking about today, because we’re going to be talking about basically the second half of this, and then how we can actually close these investors using the rest of the framework, right?

Amy:
Absolutely. There are a lot of strategies that we can implement when it comes to building rapport and trust with people above and beyond the four-second power pitch. I’ll share a few of those. I think we actually went through several of them on the last episode, the meet-up strategy, the high ticket event strategy. We can touch on more of those if you would like. It’s really step three of the FACT framework, which is the credibility piece. Now that we’re out there 24/7, we’re taking action. We’re building trust and rapport with everyone.
We’re planting that seed with everyone. We want to start to lock up coffee talks, whether they’re in person or virtually. During those 30-minute coffee talks, we want to be able to introduce a different credibility piece to our audience, because over time, these credibility pieces will increase their confidence in who we are and what we’re doing, which will eventually get us to invest with us. That’s what we’ll focus on today is the credibility piece.

Rob:
Awesome. Just so that I’m understanding, because I want to make sure that we’re really clear on all the different steps here. When you say taking action, we did talk about doing the meetups, for example, because that will establish you as a local authority. That is step… That is in the A aspect of it, right, taking action, or is that in the credibility, or is that in this limbo in between?

Amy:
It’s going to be in step two, taking action. The five strategies we discussed on episode two about taking action, there are many more that we can implement if we had the time. Anytime we’re out there building our list, if you will, or building our Rolodex, or connecting with people, that’s all going to be a part of taking action.

Rob:
Awesome. Well, let’s dive in to see the credibility aspect of this, and how we basically transition from taking action to actually posing ourselves as experts, and giving ourselves credibility so that people want to invest with us.

Amy:
Sure. I was just going through… I actually just completed a capital raise for a project here in Austin, Texas. Earlier, I’d mentioned that we’re going to come across all sorts of private money lenders, people who have never done this before, and then very seasoned private money lenders. In this case, the individual I was talking to was an expert private money lender. So, I explained to him, “Hey, in my business, I have over 16 different credibility pieces. I know you understand the business, so you just tell me what you want to see, and I will show it to you.”
In this case, he wanted to see my deal analyzer, which is my very detailed cost-benefit analysis, which takes into account every cost variable, including profits. I’m an open book. I will show everyone my personal financial situation. I will show them potential profits, because I want them to see how much is there in case we don’t hit our numbers, right? He wanted to see the deal analyzer. He wanted to see my list of frequently asked questions, which is simply a six-page PDF of every question I have received over the last 10 years packaged into a nice brochure.
Then he wanted to see my experienced private money presentation. These three things I just emailed to him. Normally, I would schedule a Zoom. I would say, “Hey, let me take you through each piece.” I would actually only start with a generic private money presentation if the individual was not experienced. So above and beyond the list of frequently asked questions, and my property analysis template, my deal analyzer, my private money presentation, which I’ll take most people through on step one, it’s really just a high-level overview. Again, I’m not dropping any details on, “This is who I am. This is my background. Here’s why I raise capital, right?”
“Here’s what’s in it for me. Here are all the reasons why my private money lenders love me. Here’s what’s in it for our private money lenders, and then here’s an example of what a deal looks like very high level.” Then I give them a call to action. “Hey, if you’re interested in learning more about the different investment opportunities we have, let me know. We’ll schedule a follow-up meeting. I’ll introduce you to my team, so on and so forth,” but there’s still no call to action as far as investing is concerned. That’s going to come later. That’s the generic private money presentation.
For those of you who are talking to somebody who has done this before, and they’ve lent on deals, my experienced private money presentation, it’s going to have more strategies in there. It’s going to talk about what it looks like to leverage out of retirement accounts. It’s going to go into a more detailed overview of what different investment opportunities look like, so the financial acumen’s going to be a little bit higher in this case. This is a great example of why I’ve got 16 different credibility pieces. We’ve got contracts. We’ve got org charts. We’ve got our business plans, and I just pick and choose depending on who I’m talking to.

Rob:
This is really interesting, because I came into thinking about the credibility aspect of this a little bit differently, just so that I am getting this because I want to use this myself. Obviously, I use components of this, but having a more linear progression, I think, is going to be very helpful for everyone listening at home. So when you’re taking action, for example, in the meetup aspect of it, and you talked about establishing yourself as a local authority, I was thinking of that as establishing credibility, which of course it does.
You’re actually talking about the credibility of you as someone who handles someone’s money. As an investor, if I’m going to give you my money, I want to feel that you are a credible financial savvy person that can actually deploy that, and perform fiduciary duty versus the credibility component of, “Hey, I build a lot of houses. Look, I’m successful. I have good returns.” I know that they’re similar, but I think one seems more financially focused when you’re establishing the credibility, versus I was thinking it was more like, “Hey, look at me. I’m pretty legit from the real estate side.” Is there much of a difference in these two camps?

Amy:
There is a difference, and it’ll be a combination of the two, because we really need to know our numbers, right? I always tell people, “Your experience doesn’t matter. What matters is the deal.” Sure, we have to be able to articulate things clearly and concisely, and know how to build our power team of experts, because if you lack experience, as long as you know how to bring together contractors, designers, architects, your experience doesn’t matter. What matters is the equity and the deal. That’s where our financial acumen comes into play, and so we want to be able to explain both sides of that to our private money lenders.

Rob:
This is very helpful. This is actually one of the… This is what I needed when I was first embarking in my raising money journey many years ago. When I was just a tiny little Robuilt, I remember I was thinking, “Oh, I build houses. I do Airbnb. I make great money on Airbnb. It shouldn’t be very hard to raise money,” and I went to my father-in-law’s brother, I guess. Was it my uncle in-law? He was like, “I’d be interested in investing. What you got?” So, I put a presentation together that was so focused on the nuts and bolts of Airbnb.
I was like, “All right, here’s what I’ve done. Here’s how much money I make. Here’s what the cash flow is going to be.” Then he hit me with the wild what I thought at the time, because I wasn’t really into this yet, but he hit me with a wild list of very investment and financial specific questions like IRRs. If this, then what? What about capital contributions? Who gets paid back first in the investment? Does your equity vest before or after you’ve paid back my investment?
To all of those questions, I felt so blindsided. I was like, “I don’t know. I mean, it’s going to make money, man. What’s the problem?” Then he was like, “This is not for me.” I was like, “Wow, this guy, he doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get Airbnb, man.” But in retrospect, I see how I failed on the second half of this. Building the credibility here definitely is important.

Amy:
That’s such a great example. Thank you for sharing of why we have to know our numbers because… This is why I created six pages of FAQs that we don’t want to only memorize them. We really want to understand them, because the private money lenders out there who have done this before, and who know what they’re doing, you will come across PMLs who will purposely ask you the same question five different ways just to test your knowledge on the logistics, but also on the financials, right? We really have to know how our process works. If we don’t, we should not be out there ethically raising capital for deals.

Rob:
100%. When you say that you put together this list of FAQs and your presentations, I know for me, we have a pretty dialed presentation. We have our own internal list of FAQs, but it’s not like we just discovered that overnight. We discovered that through failure of raising money time and time again, because every investor would ask the same question, or, like you said, a different version of the same question. So, every single time we got out of an investment meeting where we didn’t secure the capital, we were like, “Oh, we should probably think this through. What happens when partner A wants to exit the business? Do we want to have a vesting period, and all this type of stuff?”
For sure, I think as you continue to develop your pitch and your power pitch and your power presentation, just know it’s not going to be perfect when you’re getting started. You’re probably going to have a few bumps and bruises. Not everyone is going to have the wonderful Josiah story, obviously, where he’s able to lock it down super fast. I know for me, at this point, and obviously I have more of a platform, but even outside of that, I actually still don’t even talk about the platform necessarily when I’m approaching new investors, just because I want them to know that I know my stuff. I want to prove that I actually do know a lot of the financial acumen that you talked about.

David:
Amy, what do you think about the credibility being a spectrum where when you have less credibility as far as track record or knowledge, you have to put more work up front in the deal itself, like Rob talking to his uncle in-law who probably knew more about real estate than Rob did? He’s asking all these questions and stuff I wouldn’t be asking unless they were a little experienced, versus somebody later in their career, who’s got an established track record. I was trying to avoid using me as an example, but that’s the easiest way, where I bought real estate for 10 or 15 years before I ever talk to someone about raising money.
I don’t have to put as much effort into explaining all these intricate details. It’s like, “Well, it’s David. I trust him.” How do you see that progressing?

Amy:
I always respond the same way, and I get this question all the time, which is if you don’t have a lot of experience as an investor, then lean on your team of experts, because you’re not going to be the one grouting the tile, right? So as the business owner and entrepreneur, as long as you know how to analyze a deal, and you know how to build a power team, then what I do is I bring my team into these conversations. I’ll say, “Hey, even though I’ve only been doing this for a year, or I’ve never done a deal before, this is my general contractor. He’s been doing this for 25 years. This is why we picked this neighborhood, specifically these three blocks.”
“This is my designer. She owns her own design firm. This is my real estate attorney. It’s his law firm. We’ve been working together collectively, and building our strategy for the last 12 months. If you would like, I’d be more than happy to schedule a call so that you can talk to my general contractor directly.” It really is… You want to create this team that feels empowered, because I always tell people, “I’m not successful because of the things I’ve done. I’m successful because of my team, and it’s my team that helps me shine.” That’s how I overcome that objection.

David:
How about if you walk us through a deal you’ve done, and maybe hit on how you covered all four of these steps in your deal so we can see what it looks like in a real-life application?

Amy:
Sure. Absolutely. You know what, before I forget, if you would like, because I’m sure there are going to be a lot of questions about how do I create a private money presentation? What are all the details that go into it? I’ll just give you, guys, a copy, and if you want to share it with everyone, feel free to do so. Take it. Implement it. I’ll script it out for you, so those of you listening can read it and even practice at home, and then get out there and start implementing it.

Rob:
Sure. That sounds amazing. Thank you.

Amy:
As I mentioned earlier, there was a deal. Why don’t we start with my very first deal that I raised capital on, because I had only done one deal prior to that? On my very first deal, we often talk about mistakes or lessons learned. On the very first deal that I completed in downtown Chicago, I did not use private money. I was working my full-time job. I was trying to build my power team, and so I had the gap funding in the bank, and I ended up putting that into the deal. Well, two weeks later, my acquisitions manager, which is just a fancy way, you guys, of saying realtor brought me two passive income properties.
All I needed for each rental property, they were small single family homes, it was either $20,000 or $25,000 each. Each property would have cash flowed $300 a month, so we’re talking about $600 in positive cash flow every single month that I wasn’t able to pull the trigger on, because I had put my own money into my fix and flip, and I had not prioritized the art of raising capital, so I couldn’t just raise the capital today for the down payment. For me, that was a really hard lesson to learn. I always say, “Look, is $600 a month going to retire us?” No, but that’s one example of one missed opportunity, and think about how quickly that can start to add up.
I really hustled. I reprioritized. I shifted my focus in my business, and on the very next deal, I ended up raising from a complete stranger to begin with $390,000 in 21 days. Now, I hustled. I was on the phone every day. So when it came to building my foundation, before I had started actually picking up the phone to call people, and requesting referral, after referral, after referral, which we talked about on previous episodes, I made sure as a part of building my foundation, I had my online presence completed, so I had a website. I had social media profiles.
I didn’t have huge followers. Nobody knew me back then, but I made sure I had LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, and it said I’m a real estate investor. For those of you who don’t have a social media presence yet, go copy mine. I’m giving you permission right now. Copy my social media. Have at it. There’s your online presence for your website. Create a landing page. You don’t need anything fancy. Just have something, because whether we like it or not, private money lenders are going to Google us and go to our website.
I practiced my scripts. I recorded myself on my phone to make sure that I was very smooth when I was chatting over the phone, because I was still reading some of the scripts I had created 10 years ago. Then I felt comfortable getting out there, and picking up the phone to call people. That was how I built my foundation. I would call people through referrals. The first thing I would do is drop that four-second power pitch on them. Then when they wanted to learn more, now that I’m taking action, and connecting with them, I’d schedule a coffee talk. I would take them through my general basic private money presentation, which I’m going to give you guys a copy of.
I remember the gentleman during that three-week time period that I was hustling, and I was on the phone every day. So to those of you listening, this doesn’t mean in three weeks, I raised almost $400,000 through an email automation or a social media post. I’m hustling. I’m finding every single credibility piece that I can, and sharing it with as many prospective private money lenders as I can all through the four-second power pitch on all through requesting referrals, the meetup strategy, the fundraising strategy, so on and so forth.
I would hop as a part of the credibility piece, step three, in my FACT framework. During these 30-minute coffee talks, I would take them through their private money presentation. Then before I would end that coffee talk, which by the way, in a perfect world, you want to get through your presentation in 15 minutes. In the beginning, you’re going to take 45. That’s normal. It’s all a part of the process, and the learning curve, and in a perfect world, which I know we don’t live in. During these 30-minute coffee talks, you want to give your audience time to talk about who they are as well, and their experience investing, what their expectations are.
But before we would end up the conversation, I would ask, “So what do you think? Do you have any questions? Are you interested in knowing more?” I didn’t say, “Do you want to invest in that deal?” I was $400,000 for. I was looking for a private money. I never said, “All right, so do you want to wire the 400,000?” Even though internally I knew it was crunch time, right? I would get the commitment, and they would, most of the time, want to know more. Because I’d practice my presentation, they could sense the confidence in my voice. They could sense the energy.
Then that would lead into multiple coffee talks, again, where I’m introducing them through other credibility pieces, such as the contracts I use in my deals, or the design piece, or I’d share architectural renderings. I would show them what it would look like to leverage out of their retirement accounts. Once they committed, then step four, the transactional piece is I would take them through before they process any wire. This is where I’m at right now on a new raise I’m doing here in Austin, Texas. I would say, “Hey, let me know.”
So, this gentleman’s going to let me know within the next 24 hours if he wants to invest $300,000. I said to him, “Hey, once you decide whether or not you want to invest, then let’s hop on another zoom.” I’m getting the commitment, but I’m still building rapport and trust. I’ll explain to you how the flow of money works, but right now, don’t even worry about it. We’ll cross that bridge when or if we get there. Once somebody invests with you, and they process the wire, that’s a step for the FACT framework, the transactions piece.
Then we really want to take a step back, and look at how we nurture our network. How do we follow up with our private money lenders so that two things happen? Number one, they reinvest. Number two, they increase their investment amount. That’s going to go into our nurture system, but that’s at a very high level how I raised the first 400. I parlay that into how I’m working on the next 300 on my current deal.

Rob:
Awesome. Let me clarify on the C on the credibility aspect of it. When you end that power pitch or not the, sorry, the coffee talk, you’re going to say, “Do you want to know more?” I got to imagine that a large percentage of those people are like, “Keep going.” Do you try to cram it all in that meeting, or because you can, I don’t want to say close them while they’re warm, or do you schedule another… I know you said you do multiple coffee talks. How does this play out for you usually?

Amy:
I don’t want to cram it as much as I can into one meeting, even if the investor is a seasoned investor, like the gentleman I’m talking to right now, because it can still be overwhelming. It’s a lot of content. Even if you guys email me an executive summary before we even talk about the deal, I’m going to be like, “What is this? What are all these numbers? What are they doing?” I probably will either delete or not read it, actually not if it came from you guys, but that’s a whole nother conversation.
Whether it was 10 years ago or today, I still approach it in the four-step process, and I will still offer to take my private money lenders through all the credibility pieces. Similar to what David said earlier, sure. Now through social media, now through these interviews, now through my experience, I have people who reach out to me saying, “I want to invest with you.” There are going to be times where a lot of people don’t even know who I am, but whether they know me or not, I still offer to take them through the four-step process.

Rob:
That’s really cool. So then at the end of the transaction side, you talk about the nurturing. I imagine that at the same time, you do want to be a little high touch probably for at least the couple of days or the week after. That way, someone doesn’t wire you $100,000, and then you stop talking to them, and they’re like, “Well, what happened here?” Is there a little bit extra communication that happens directly after just to cure any buyer’s remorse that might be setting in for an investor?

Amy:
Yes. I always take care of my private money lenders, and I like to over communicate, but in a respectful way. For example, the gentleman I was just talking to to today about this Austin raise. He said, “All right.” He goes, “I’ll send you an email, and then you’re just going to email me wire instructions if I decide to move forward.” I said, “No. Even now 10 years later, I’m still not going to raise capital through an email blast. I’m going to pick up the phone, and call my top 10. I’ve got 10 private money lenders who I go to first. I’m not going to text them.”
This gentleman asked, “Do you have an opt-in page, so I can learn more about future investment opportunities?” I laughed, because I was like, “Oh my God, no. I’ve been doing this for 10 years, and I don’t. I don’t have an opt-in page. A lot of investors do, but that’s because I really focus on building and sustaining that relationship with my private money lenders through old school strategies, picking up the phone and talking, or going out for lunch or coffee.” That’s how I will… That’s a part of how I nurture those relationships.

Rob:
That’s awesome. I can really see, even for me, how this is going to play out, because I’m currently doing a raise right now for a $7 million 23-unit motel, and a lot of the times, there’s the platform, right? That helps me establish, I guess, the foundation where I can talk about it, and get people interested in that project. But I haven’t really… I had a marketing plan in mind, but now I think I’m going to adjust it based on what we talked about today, which is I talk about it. I gather the interested leads. Then I was going to… I plan on now hosting meetups, or I guess virtual workshops, if you will, or virtual meetups with people. That way, I can reach the entire country.
That would be a taking action, getting people in a room, telling them about what I do, telling them about the deal, and then going to credibility at that point, taking it from the group setting down to individual, as you call it, coffee talks where we actually start taking those calls with investors to actually walk them through the specifics of the deal, not just the actual real estate side of it, but talking through the actual nuts and bolts of a syndication, limited partnerships, the general partners, and everything like that, and then finally the transaction side where we then have to get them through all the nuts and bolts of that too.
Make sure that they’re accredited. Make sure that they actually are able to sign up online, get them into the portal, and then as we just talked about, keeping it high touch there for the next couple of weeks, so just to make sure that everybody’s updated. You have already influenced my raising strategy on what I’m doing right now. Thank you.

Amy:
Thank you, sir. I’d love to hear both your thoughts on this, because to me, raising capital is fun. Talking to people and networking, it’s fun. I always tell investors, “It ends up turning into not so much a game,” but you don’t even realize eventually once you get good at raising capital, you don’t even realize that it’s happening. You’ll be out there every day raising capital. For me, I like spending time with my private money lenders. My private money lenders have become my friends. We take vacations together. We go on masterminds together.
So in my business, and everyone’s process may be different, once a private money lender has invested a million dollars with me, it can either be in one lump sum or across multiple deals. I will pay to fly them out to the job site, give them this VIP experience, take them out to dinner, sit down with my team, walk through properties. They love that. It’s another great way to continue to develop that long-term relationship. So now, not only are they reinvesting with us, and reinvesting greater amounts, but now they’re starting to introduce us to our network of prospective investors.
But what do you guys think? What has your experience been there?

Rob:
I think that’s really great. I wanted… When we were going to originally launch our fund, where we were going to build a few houses or 23 houses in Joshua tree, we actually had intended to allow the different investors to stay at those properties at short-term rentals. We’re building a short-term rental portfolio. Come and actually stay there a few nights once it’s all done, which is great, but it’s not instant gratification, right? I definitely think that there’s a level of credibility even that’s added when you say, “Hey, thanks so much for investing. Come out. We’ll meet you out there. We’ll fly you out there, and we’ll actually take you through the project,” because I mean, I’m sure you know.
Actually walking a project is completely different than seeing it online. David and I hadn’t seen the Spanish mansion that we bought in Scottsdale in person previous to buying it, and then we showed up, and we were like, “Whoa, this was worth it. This was worth the massive investment that we just made.” It’s a little magical, especially as an investor to actually walk through something that you purchased in, that you participated in, and it’s very surreal. I think as long as you can keep that up, and keep an investor very, I don’t want to say enchanted, but very excited about the opportunity, then, I think, the funds there open up, because we have investors that we work with now.
We are relatively high touch. We definitely communicate with them and everything. But the more you can do that, and the more you can nurture that relationship like you’re talking about, they tend to want to invest again and again and again. It definitely is a strategy worth pursuing to get someone out there to actually see the property. But I don’t know. That’s me. What about you, Dave?

David:
I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, and I don’t want to make this a two-hour episode, so why don’t we do this? We will let Amy have the last word on this show, wrap up what she was describing. I will save my thoughts for the follow-up episode to this episode, which will be putting a button in it, as you might say, Rob. We’ll get into what do you do once you’ve got someone who’s like, “I’ve got some money to lend?” You work the FACT process. It works out. How do you invest that money?
There’s debt. There’s equity. There’s combinations of the two. There’s all kinds of creative ways, so I think that this would be a good thing to get into once we’ve finished the four-part system. So if you want to hear my advice or my feedback on what I do when I’m raising money, or different ways to do it, you’re going to have to listen to the next episode. Before we get out of here, Amy, do you have any final thoughts that you’d like to leave us with?

Amy:
Sure. Just as we wrap step four, the FACT framework, and those transactions are coming in, we talked briefly about the VIP experience, and defining what our follow-up system looks like, and how we’re going to nurture our network moving forward. I always like to be clear with my private money lenders, and let them know, “Hey, you are an investor in this deal. So as far as I’m concerned, this project is just as much yours as it is mine.” Use this in your portfolio. Put this on your website as one of your properties that’s coming soon.
Blast on all over social media. Tell your friends and family members about this amazing new build that’s coming up in Austin, Texas, and just be comfortable sharing this project as a part of your own, because I really believe that this is yours just as much as it is mine.

David:
That’s awesome. Robin, what do you think about the show so far? Any last words for us before we get out of here?

Rob:
No, I was just going to say that the reason I say put a button on it is because you’re cute as a button when you talk about real estate, David. That’s all.

David:
Speaking of cute as a button, there are so many bears. I’m out here in the Smokey Mountains right now looking at more cabins. I’ve seen about seven bears in two days. They’re everywhere. I mean, I just thought it was every once in a while, you might see a bear, but no, they’re walking down the street. They’re going into people’s front yards. I was literally looking at a house, and a bear came walking up on the porch as I was stepping outside to open the door, and see the view out of the corner of my eye. What I thought was a black lab was actually a very big black bear.
Well, I guess it would be very big for a lab. It was small for a bear, but still, it just comes sauntering up, looks right at you, cruises around, sniffs around for food, walks away. It’s amazing how they’re everywhere out here. I keep hearing people call them cute. It’s like, “That’s not what I think of when I see a bear.” I see that’s an apex predator. That is not afraid of anything. That is competition for me. I don’t see them cute at all. Amy, what’s your thoughts on that? Are bears cute, or are they scary?

Amy:
They are not cute. Even in giant black lab, I love dogs, but no, I’m like, “I don’t know.” I haven’t even been to Yosemite. I don’t jive well with bears.

David:
Rob, you were going to say?

Rob:
I had a bear walk up to me at my chalet in Gatlinburg when I bought it. It was probably about four or five feet away. Like you said, just casual. I was right next to someone, and I got… I was tying my shoe, and I got up, and I was like… I just started… Basically me and the person I was next to, we realized it at the same time. She was like, “Bear!” We did what you’re supposed to do, which is just run as fast as you can away from the bear. We made it out alive. We’re okay.
I’m glad she did, because I was out of words. I later found out that what you’re supposed to do is instead of running, you’re just supposed to point at it, and shout out its insecurities to its face, but I didn’t know that tidbit at the time. I could go back [inaudible 00:51:31].

David:
Your partner never approved of you, and the bear will just turn around and run away.

Rob:
That’s right. I guess I wish I had known that, but it’s okay. We made it out alive.

David:
You have really small pause for a bear your size.

Rob:
You call those bear pause.

David:
Barely pause at all. On our final episode, you will get to hear Amy’s insults towards a bear that she uses to keep herself safe when she does encounter a bear as well. Don’t miss it. Rob, if people want to find out more about you, where can they go?

Rob:
Oh my gosh. You asked, dude. You pick up quick, man. You can find me on YouTube over at Robuilt. That’s R-O-B-U-I-L-T. You can find me on Instagram at Robuilt as well, and TikTok at Robuilto. What about you, David?

David:
I’m DavidGreene24. I’m now doing YouTube lives at youtube.com/davidgreenerealestate. If you guys want to come in and ask me questions, feel free. But most importantly, Amy, if someone wants to give you money, or they want to learn more about your FACT system, where can they find out more about you?

Amy:
Sure. You guys can catch me on Instagram at AmyMahjoory, or just come join us in October. I’m doing a live event in Long Beach, California. We’ll have a two-day conference all about real estate and money, and it’s going to be a lot of fun.

David:
All right. Most importantly, you can follow BiggerPockets for more than just the podcast. We have a YouTube channel where I interview different people. Other people are interviewed about different things. If there’s a specific topic, short-term rentals, finding on-market deals, finding off-market deals, commercial real estate, whatever your flavor is, head over to YouTube, and check out the BiggerPockets YouTube channel, because there’s a ton of content, much of it shorter than this, but more specific in nature.
You can get lost in there, and I hope you do because it’s good to spend your time watching real estate videos instead of cat videos or on TikTok. BiggerPockets is much better for your financial future. All right, Amy, thank you so much. If you guys would like to hear Amy again, all you got to do is check out the next episode. Please like, share, and subscribe this episode on the podcast. We love you, and we’ll see you on the next one. This is David Greene for Rob “the bear cub” Abasolo signing off.

 

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Dave:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to On the Market. I’m your host, Dave Meyer, joined by Jamil Damji, for a very special episode today. Do you want to tell everyone who’s coming on today, Jamil?

Jamil:
It’s my best friend, my best buddy in the whole world, Pace Morby. I am thrilled to have him here. He’s a real estate genius, and he’s going to school us all in the world of creative finance. Your minds are going to be blown.

Dave:
Honestly, mine was. It was so cool, and just so you know, we obviously… Pace has so much information, but we brought him on today because what he’s really known for and what he’s a specialist in is creative finance. We’re going to talk about two specific strategies, seller financing and sub-to, and both of those, given the interest rate environment that we’re in right now are becoming, at least in my opinion, you’ll hear all about this, more and more attractive options for everyday real estate investors. It gives you options to pay less in interest basically, and so-

Jamil:
Absolutely.

Dave:
… if you are running into 6% interest rates and you’re worried about that and it’s causing you to shy away from deals, you’re definitely, definitely going to want to listen to this episode. All right, we ran way too long in talking to Pace because it was fun and he has such a great story, so we’ll keep this introduction short, and let’s welcome Pace Morby onto On the Market.
Pace Morby, welcome to On the Market. Thank you so much for being here.

Pace:
My favorite show in real estate, brother. Thank you for having me, both of you.

Dave:
Oh, you’re just saying that. You say that to all of the shows.

Pace:
I don’t. This show is unbelievable. I’ve been waiting for BiggerPockets to do something this epic. You guys are the best.

Dave:
Awesome. Well thank you. I want to start because if our audience doesn’t know, we are in the presence right now of one of the great bromances in real estate investing right now, I think, right? I mean-

Jamil:
A hundred percent.

Dave:
… Pace and-

Jamil:
That’s a-

Dave:
… Jamil, if you don’t know, are on a show on A&E called Triple Digit Flip. They work together, and I’m just curious, I don’t even know the backstory. How did you guys meet and start running these businesses together?

Pace:
Oh, can I tell this story?

Dave:
Please do, Pace.

Pace:
Okay, so this is an interesting story, maybe to us, but I was a contractor for a long time. I was working for Opendoor, Offerpad, Zillow. I was their main contractor doing all their turns here in Phoenix, Arizona. I would do their work, bill them, send them an invoice, and that’s how I was making money on their fix and flips. Well, Opendoor changed their business model. They went from spending a lot of money on renovations to very little. They threw in an algorithm where they go, “Look, hey, Pace, we’ve got some news for you.” I go into the office. I have 180 employees at the time just dedicated only to Opendoor. We were doing like a million a month in revenue with them.
They come in. I talk to a lady named Megan. She goes, “Well, we’ve got some good news and some bad news. The good news is, here’s a bonus check for a hundred thousand dollars. Thanks for all the hard work.” I’m like, “Yes.” “Then, the bad news is we’re going to change our entire business model, so we’re going to go from spending an average of $50,000 per house to spending closer to $3,000 per house.”

Dave:
Whoa.

Pace:
You imagine having 180 employees dedicated to that business model, and then all of a sudden you need maybe one-tenth of them?

Dave:
Wow.

Pace:
What I did is I deviated my business to focus on local fix and flippers and I said, “Okay, I’m not going to let go of my guys. I love my guys. I love my business. I’m going to deviate my clientele to find local fix and flippers that are doing also turns and that kind of stuff, quick fix and flips.” I find a guy, I’m not proud of this, but I found a guy that essentially was running a Ponzi scheme. I got into him a million dollars, so Dave, I’ve always been really creative.
How I built my business as a construction contractor is I would go to guys like this gentleman, let’s just say his name is John. It’s not John, but let’s just say it is John, and I’d go, “Hey, I see you’re fixing and flipping. I see public record. You’re doing 20, 30 deals a year. How about I come in and be your contractor? I will fund, I will be a line of credit to you, and I will fund your renovations and you can pay me at the end of your project when you sell the house.”
It was the fastest way to grow a business because essentially, all of these people that are fixing and flipping, they’re going, “Okay, well, I can get hard money to purchase the house, but how am I going to pay for the renovation?” I essentially was their private money lender and their contractor. Blew up my business like crazy. I was so well-known in town as the contractor to go to because of the creative way that I would go in and build my business. Well, this worked until it didn’t, and there was a guy that was buying really bad deals and he was borrowing money from friends, family. Finally, he hears about me and he calls me up, starts courting me.
Very long story short, four years later, I’m into this guy well over a million dollars in cash, and he comes to me and he goes, “I’ll get you all your money back. I know you’ve got these rentals, these sub-to and seller finance and these private house you have. If you can sell all of those and get me the cash I need to wrap up these next 20 projects, I can get you flush. I just need to finish these next 20 projects.”
The problem, Dave, is I was just so deep into this hole at this point, I couldn’t see way out except for I’m going to dig… Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to dig myself out and like get a tunnel to go upwards. That’s what I was thinking, so I go and sell 40 rentals, I sell my personal house just to save my bacon. Essentially, in the midst of all of this, I go, “I need a confidant. I need somebody that I can trust and I can get some advice from because everybody’s telling me I’m crazy.”
I was almost looking for somebody to justify my position. I was looking for… Whatever truth you seek, you will find it, like whatever… If you go out and you want to believe your own lies, I wanted to believe the lie that this guy was ever going to pay me back. I wanted to believe it so desperately, so I was going around town finding people that had done business with him trying to find somebody that was like, “No, the guy’s credible.” Well, I run into Jamil’s name and I’m like trying to find this guy Jamil. People talked about Jamil. He was like a ghost in town. He was doing 10, 15… Literally, this guy was a ghost. He was like a night owl. Nobody even knew where he was or anything, but people were doing deals with him, a lot of deals, like 15, 20 deals every single month.
His name was on the lips of like some of the most prolific investors here in Phoenix, so his name would come up everywhere I’d go, restaurants, eating with people, going to RIAs. I’d hear people on YouTube podcasting about, “This guy Jamil, this guy Jamil, but don’t talk about his name.” I don’t know what this… He was like Machiavelli. It was the craziest thing ever.

Dave:
Don’t look him in the eyes, whatever you do.

Pace:
Basically, it was just like that, and I go on Instagram. I find this guy with a user name of @jdamji, and it has no photos, no posts, and his profile photo is an owl.

Dave:
So mysterious.

Pace:
Seriously, this is it. I DM him and I go, “Hey, man, I’m in trouble with this guy named John, and I heard you’ve done a lot of deals with this guy. I’m kind of looking for somebody to help me through this with some advice.” Jamil takes two weeks to reply to me. This would be before Jamil was on social media. This was years ago, roughly six, seven years ago. Jamil goes, “We need to meet for lunch. We need to have a conversation.” This is a much longer story, but I’m going to wrap it up in 30 seconds.
Jamil sits me down and shows me through public record that this guy was running a Ponzi scheme. He was paying over retail value for houses with other wholesalers because what he was trying to do, this was his business model, he would tell all the wholesalers in town, “Go find me deals. Bring them all to me and I’ll do dispo or sell those to you to end buyers.” The way to beat out all his competition, from other people that were doing disposition, is he would overpay for these houses. Eight out of 10 times it would work, and the other 20% of the time he would overpay and he couldn’t sell the deal, but he didn’t want to go back to that wholesaler and say, “I’m going to bail on that deal,” and ruin that relationship. What he would do is he would bring the house to me and go, “Dig me out of this hole. Fund the construction. Hopefully we can rehab ourselves out of this bad decision I made.”
Jamil sits me down, shows me all through public record, “Pace, this guy’s leveraging 18% hard money. He’s got second position and third position loans from friends and families. This guy is running a Ponzi scheme to like the highest level.”

Dave:
Wow.

Pace:
Dave, I still didn’t believe Jamil. I sold my personal house.

Dave:
Oh, no.

Pace:
I sold 40 rentals and I got enough cash to give this guy. Right as I gave this guy the rest of my cash, I went through this six-month thing of liquidating all my assets to dig myself out, I get a bankruptcy letter. Hits me right on my doorstep, and the guy, he ends up filing bankruptcy on nearly $16 million of debt.

Dave:
Oh my God.

Jamil:
Yeah.

Dave:
Wow.

Pace:
Bonkers.

Dave:
I’m sorry to hear that. That’s horrible.

Pace:
It was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me, to be honest, okay.

Jamil:
It was.

Pace:
One of the reasons why is because I learned to never doubt a single thing that Jamil Damji has to say.

Dave:
It’s… Yeah, we all have to just… Whatever Jamil says, we have to follow from now on.

Pace:
Basically. This is what started a wonderful relationship. Jamil and I were actually competitors. We’ve always been competitors. We chase after the same cash deals here locally, and we go into a meetup, let’s say there’s a 200-person meetup here in Phoenix. Him and I are working the room with the same goal to get deals from people in that room. I’ll run up to people and I’ll go, “Hey, you got a deal for me?” They go, “I already sold it to Jamil.” I’m like, “Gosh, dang it.”
That’s how our relationship started. We started hanging out with each other a lot, and we realized that we were like the yin to each other’s yang. We started having so much fun that one day Jamil comes to me and he says, this is like three years into our relationship, he says, “I think we should take this buddy comedy on the road.” I think what we do is we just fly around and we go to local RIAs and we talk to people about how collaborating with your competition is one of the greatest things you could ever do.
I’m almost done with this story. This is how we ended up getting a TV show, too. We go and we spend money and time and energy going to these RIAs and people would say stuff like, “Man, do you have a coaching product?” We’re like, “No, we’re here to help you. We don’t have a product. We’re not coaches. We’re just here to show you what collaboration’s like.” People were dumbfounded and we created this amazing cult-like following of people that were like, “Wow, these guys are like genuinely here to just lay down the truth and teach us.” We’d go on appointments with people. We would go door-knocking. We would fly all over the country and do this with people.
Well, one day, Jamil and I are like, “Let’s take a two-week break.” At this time, I was just starting my YouTube channel and I go, “Cool. I’m going to go film YouTube. You go home, you take a break.” We’ve been on the road for like 60 days straight and just helping people. The day we get home, I get a text message from a guy named Ryan and he says, “Pace, I’ve got this deal. Cash deal, $165,000.” I go, “Love it. I want it. Send it to me. I’ll fix and flip that.” Five minutes later, Dave, he goes, “I’m sorry. The price is now $175,000.” I’m like, “What? Why? Why didn’t you just send it to me at 175? Why are we playing this game?” He says, “Well, because I have another guy bidding. He said he’d pay 175.” I go, “Gosh, dang it. Fine, I’ll pay 176.”
He comes back and he goes, “Okay, it’s 185 now.” This other guy just keeps hiking it up, and so I text Jamil and I go, “Bro, am I crazy to think that there’s no way to make money on this deal? Would you comp this for me? Some idiot is bidding me up on the other side of this wholesaler and I’m about to pay 186 for this thing I was about to pay 165 for.” Jamil goes, “I’m the other idiot.”

Dave:
That’s amazing. Did either of you buy it?

Pace:
We bought it together. It was one of those-

Dave:
Okay, yeah.

Pace:
… first deals we did together, and so I said, “Let’s just buy the deal together. Let’s stop bidding each other up. Dave, what we did is we went on Instagram and we told people, “Hey, we’ve never seen the house. We bought it sight unseen like you do fixing and flipping a lot of times. We go, “Meet us at the property. We’re going to do a walk-through.” We bring our YouTube crew and we ended up having like 40, 50 people go to this walk-through just randomly within like two hours of us posting this Instagram Story.
People show up. We film the YouTube video with all these people walking through the property with us, and Jamil’s just being hilarious, like he’s picking up the seller’s, the previous homeowner’s clothes and putting them on and using different voices and stuff. Well, dude, this is the craziest thing. Somebody sends this YouTube video to A&E-

Dave:
Whoa.

Pace:
… and they go, “There’s nothing like these two on TV. They’re competitors, but they’re collaborating, and they’re bringing the audience to the actual house.” Think about that. All these videos people do about like, “Hey, look at my house,” it’s like we started doing videos where we brought the audience as a live audience to our YouTube videos. A&E just fell in love with the strategy and what we loved, and so we got a TV show out of all of this stuff, so when… People are like, “I feel so bad that this guy filed bankruptcy on you,” I’m like, “It was the beginning of the greatest path of my life.”

Dave:
It’s so funny how that works out. It seems to always be the time you’re in the depths of despair that some glimmer of hope or something changes that leads to that best thing. I think that’s a really good lesson for people just investing in general, and appreciate you sharing your losses. Jamil did this on one of our previous episodes, too, but in this age of social media, you see people just presenting these front where everything is so great and there’s no losses and you’re always winning and making millions. There are hard times and it’s really cool to see how you turned what must have been really difficult, I’m sure it was really difficult at the time, into something that has been so fruitful and enjoyable for both of you.

Pace:
Yeah, it’s interesting. Looking at like the people who have a victim mentality versus, “How do I win the situation?” How do I… What’s that martial arts where you take the momentum being thrown at you and you throw it a different direction?

Dave:
That’s Jiu-Jitsu.

Pace:
Okay, cool, so it’s like Jiu-Jitsu. It’s like, “Okay, whatever energy’s being thrown at me, I’m going to use that momentum versus absorbing it and becoming the victim of that energy.” These are the things I’ve learned from Jamil is like how to use that energy properly, and it’s the same thing in this market right now. I see a lot of people complaining about interest rates and this and all these other things, and I’m like, “Guys, use these things to your advantage. You can either be a victim, or you can dominate in this exact market.” Jamil’s story about the 50… It was the 53-unit deal that you were talking about?

Jamil:
Yeah, yeah.

Pace:
Great story, and when it was going… I was watching this happen to Jamil, I was like, “I already know what you’re going to do, man. You’re going to use this as a learning lesson for hundreds of thousands of people to hear this story.” I think that video’s doing really, really well. People are loving it in the comments and stuff. Was that just recently released?

Jamil:
Yeah, it was just a released podcast we did here-

Pace:
[inaudible 00:16:29].

Jamil:
… on BiggerPockets.

Pace:
Anyway, the market, it’s changed a lot and I see a lot of people complaining about it and I’m over here thriving in this environment, excited about when these types of things happen, interest rate hikes, economic turmoil, those types of things. You just got to use it to your advantage. That’s all there is to it.

Jamil:
You know, to add to that, Pace, the interesting thing is for me, I’m a single-family guy. I’m a wholesaler. That’s my niche and I et it. I can wholesale and comp and do all these things in my sleep because it’s in my DNA, but I really want to get involved in other things. Pace and I, we both have an extremely lucrative life and I’m here, he watched me write a huge check to the IRS last year, and then he showed me his $3500 refund. I know how much money he makes, and so I’m like dumbfounded. I’m like, “Bro, what are you doing? How are you mitigating your tax situation? How are you accomplishing this?” This is the hardest thing that is in my life right now is, how do I keep the money I’m earning?
Had I done… Had I listened to Pace more, I would have been in this deal in a different structure. I would have been in this deal creatively and it would have saved my bacon, it would have saved the earnest money. The deal would have worked if I had put the deal together the way that he does. I’m watching this guy travel around the country, still right now, buying deals in Texas, buying deals in North Carolina, buying deals everywhere across the country using creative methods, minimizing his tax situation by depreciation, creating massive cash flow. While everybody is screaming about lending terms, he’s creating his own.

Dave:
Well, that is a perfect segue, and totally agree because we wanted to have yo on here, Pace, because you’ve become known in the real estate investing community for being one of the most creative people when it comes to financing deals. There is this challenge now, and I’m sure you’ll teach us how to make the best of it, but interest rates have nearly doubled over the last couple of months. For people who are just approaching their real estate investing with conventional mortgages, that makes cash flow more difficult to find. It makes everything less affordable, and so I’d love for you to just help our audience understand what alternative options are out there and how you, like you said, are thriving in this type of environment.

Pace:
Okay, cool, so last year, I did 40 BRRRRR deals, single-family BRRRRR deals. I don’t talk a lot about BRRRRR because it’s not on-brand for me. It confuses like what I’m talking about, but I love the BRRRRR strategy. I did 40 last year. This year, I’ll do less than 20.

Jamil:
Yes. I don’t know that you necessarily love it, Pace.

Pace:
Right. Okay. What it is is I guess I feel like I’m in a different lane. That’s all there is to it. I’ll do 20 deals this year that are BRRRRR and they’re way compressed, way, way, way compressed. A lot of the deals we had in our pipeline back in January that we were planning on buying and… You know, a lot of times, the BRRRRR strategy will take three to nine months, sometimes upwards of 12 depending on the size of the deal. We had to cancel a lot of deals or go back and renegotiate with the sellers and say, “I can’t do this on cash. We need to do this on terms instead.” Some of those sellers were like, “You’re renegotiating. This is not good business practice, and I’d rather just cancel the contract with you.” Some of those sellers were amenable to a seller finance situation, which was great.
Here’s the thing. Last year, dong 40 BRRRRR deals, this year doing 20, you can see that somebody doing BRRRRR, me actively, my business cut in half. However, last year, I acquired about a hundred rentals through seller finance. This year, I will buy 900 doors with seller finance and subject-to, 900, so my business has more than 9Xed through this economic situation. It’s because… I don’t know if you guys have ever heard of the analogy of fishing, where people will think that you fishing… Fishing works all day long. You could go out to a river or a lake and you can fish all day long and you will catch fish. No matter what time of day, you will catch fish.
However, there are certain conditions during the day where the kelp comes up off the floor and things are happening in the water based on the moon and all sorts of things that when your lure is in the water at those times, the fish are way more active. They’re taking the same bait that they weren’t taking two hours prior. That’s very similar to creative finance, so the creative finance strategies that we’re seeing dominate right now are seller finance, subject to novation agreements. Arbitrage right now is crazy, like Airbnb Arbitrage is crazy right now. Then, finally, lease options.
The two that I love more than anything is subject-to and seller finance, so I’ll give you a really good example. I’ve got a deal in San Angelo, Texas. 43-unit multifamily, zero dollars down, 4% interest, and the seller’s giving me 50-year terms with no balloon.

Dave:
Whoa.

Pace:
Whoa, right?

Dave:
Can you explain a little bit about why? Like what-

Pace:
Yes.

Dave:
… is the psychology of a seller that-

Jamil:
[inaudible 00:21:59].

Dave:
… motivates them to do that?

Pace:
Bro, I can tell you, this is one of the biggest barriers to entering into creative finance is that you… Rule number one of creative finance is never lose money. Okay, always cash flow. That’s rule number one. Rule number two is never put your brain in the seller’s head because so many times we’re like, “Why would they do this?” Oftentimes, the answer is because they have a lot more money than you do. They’re way older than you. They’re way more experienced than you are, and most people entering into real estate that are brand new that don’t understand creative finance are like, “Why would somebody give up a property that I’m desperately trying to get my hands on? Why would they do it in a way that makes so much sense for me?”
I’ll give you this story. Gentleman’s name is Mario. I actually was so excited about this guy because I flew out to San Angelo and I spent a whole day with him recording. I got 19 reasons why he did this deal this way, and I recorded the whole thing so that people could have it, and it’s on YouTube. You guys can hear Mario with his own words. He moves to America. He’s Romanian. He moves to America 35 years ago. The first deal he ever did was a subject-to deal. Why? He couldn’t get bank financing. He was a foreigner. He didn’t have the money, and so he’s like, “I want to get into real estate. What’s the only way I can do that?” Well, seller finance or subject-to.
He does a subject-to 35 years ago, and then he purchases an entire real estate portfolio and nearly $300 million of real estate over about 10 years all using creative finance because that was the only thing he knew. What you learn through all of this is a lot of times, people, what you focus on expands. People focus on BRRRRR, they focus on cash deals, and that’s what expands in their universe. Meanwhile, I say no to cash deals. People send me a deal on my Instagram. “Pace, I got a great deal.” Perfect, send it to somebody else. Send it to Jamil. I don’t want cash deals. I only want creative, and because of that, I’m overwhelmed. I turn down a hundred deals for every one that I buy.
Why did Mario do this? Number one, he’s 55 years old. He wants to truly retire. How does a seller sell a $3 million asset, not pay taxes, and truly retire? Well, some people will say, “Well, he should 1031 it. He should roll his gains to the next deal.” Okay, well, two things have to happen for that. One, he has to have another deal, and if he’s trying to retire, does that sound like something he wants? No, he doesn’t.

Dave:
Not retiring.

Pace:
He wants to retire, so, one, he doesn’t want another deal to roll into. Two, he says, “I don’t have another deal,” and so it makes sense for me if I take my money in interest payments from you, 4% interest, maybe I die tomorrow. Maybe I die in 20 years. Maybe I die in 30 years, but either way, I don’t need the money today. I just don’t want to give it to the IRS. I want those payments to go to my children. That’s another reason. The payments will bear interest. One of the things I ask in my interview, I go, “So Mario, will you make more money on this real estate transaction than you would going through a cash deal?” He goes, “Oh my gosh, literally three times more money. I will make three times more money on this deal.”
Here’s a couple of reasons why. One, no agents involved. Two, no appraisals are involved. Three, we’re not going through months and months and months of inspections and all that kind of stuff. You get a deal under contract with seller finance on multifamily or anything, and I can close three days later. Go through a title company. Takes almost no time. He can sell at the price that makes sense for him, so if you run this deal, this deal is only worth about 2.85 million. I bought it for 3 million. I overpaid on paper for this deal, but the difference is I didn’t give him a down payment. I immediately inherit a multifamily property that’s bringing in $30,000 a month after my payment to him because he’s been upgraded from landlord to lender. He’s now the lender. He receives payments from me. After all my CapEx, after my property management, after everything, I net $11,000 net net, in my pocket every month on day one.

Dave:
That’s with “overpaying” for that property?

Pace:
That’s overpaying for the property.

Jamil:
The landlord’s going to make, well, the owner’s going to make tremendously more money because even at 4% interest, that’s him. He’s the bank now. You paid him more money from the property than he would have gotten, and now he’s actually getting that. You guys ever look at an amortization schedule? It’ll make you sick.

Pace:
It’ll make you sick. If you go to… BiggerPockets has a bunch of amazing calculators. You guys should go look at those, but so, one, he did the calculation and when we were talking to him, it was a cold call. We cold call multifamily deals that are over 30 units and under 150 units. That’s where we get the deals from. People have a lot of equity. We’ll call them and say, “Hey, are you interested in selling?” That’s where this lead came from. Mario does the calculation.
He says, “If I put this on the market, I can sell this for 2.85 million probably. I’m going to have to go through a broker, and they’re going to have a broker, and we’re going to pay all of these commissions and all of these things and it’s going to take six months for me to get out of the deal. How about I just sell it for 2.85 million on seller finance and I put 4% interest on it so by the time I sold it for cash,” he says, “I would have walked away with about $2.45 million out of the 2.85?”
$450,000 went in his pocket, at least on paper, and the great thing is he’ll bear interest on that additional $450,000, not only the 2.4. Those are a couple of big reasons. The biggest reason I find with sellers on seller finance is they want to mitigate their tax liability. You only get paid on what you receive. I’m sorry, you only get taxed on what you receive. He’s not going to get taxed on that full $2.85 million today. He’ll get taxed only as he receives the money, and if he stretches that out over 50 years, he’s going to have other write-offs next year that will actually mitigate the gain that he gets next year. He essentially can set up a zero taxable event on this deal by stretching this deal out.
Those are like five of the 19 reasons he gave. His biggest thing is he like, “Honestly, I just make a decision, I go with it.” The other thing is, he now still has control of that asset. I own it, but he’s my bank. We set up a clause in the seller finance situation where if I default, it immediately reverts back to him. He keeps any payments I’ve made along the way. He keeps any improvements, any rent raises I have. He’s like, “This is the safest investment I could ever make. Where else am I going to put my $2.85 million right now? The stock market’s crashing, crypto’s crashing, everything’s crashing. Where else am I going to put my money that’s safe, secure, and I know the asset better than the person who bought it from me?”

Jamil:
Pace, what’s the instrument that you’re using called that reverts the property right back to the seller in case of a default?

Pace:
It’s called a performance deed. It’s something me an attorney created about six years ago where you get sellers that go, “Well, what if you default?” I go, “That’s a really great question. How do I create an instrument, a document that protects the seller and myself in the event that I default? Let’s say I get abducted by aliens. I’m not around to make the payment. I’m not around to manage the property anymore.
How does that seller get it in a traditional sense as they go foreclose on you? Who wants to foreclose on you? Nobody, and so what you do is you have a clause in your deed, or I’m sorry, in your deed of trust that’s called a performance clause. It says that on the 31st day of me being late, the property will revert back to them. The way we do that is we have a deed in lieu document that is pre-signed, notarized that the seller can go and file in the event that I default.

Dave:
That’s super cool. I mean, you have to… At first, when you say 4%, it’s kind of like, “Oh, 4% is not a great interest rate,” but you have to understand the seller’s mentality, like you said, and the context of what else is available for someone who wants to retire. Normally, someone might take that money. They might sell it to you just for cash or whatever, put it in a savings account because back in the day, you could earn 5% on a savings account. Now, it’s, what, 0.5% or something like that. Or, if you’re approaching retirement, a lot of times a financial advisor will advise you to put money in bonds. Bonds now are yielding far less than 4%, for example.
It really depends on where you are in your career. If you’re 22 years old and you’re trying to get wealthy as quickly as possible, 4% probably doesn’t sound that attractive to you, but if you’re 55 years old and you’re trying to retire and you can have, as Pace said, an extremely safe investment that yields you more than the other safe investments out there like a savings account or a bond right now, then, that is an incredibly attractive offer. I’m curious, Pace, if these like market conditions that we’re seeing right now are helping you generate leads. Are you seeing a bigger influx of people who are interested in this given what else is going on in the economy?

Pace:
Yeah, the word I would use is overwhelming, and if you don’t mind, I want to put a button on that 4%. If people understand amortization calculators, most of the interest you receive is in the first 10, 15 years. Effectively, that investor or that lender, Mario in this example, he’s not making 4% for the first 10 years. Then, if you do the research, what’s the average amount of time that an investor will keep a property before they refinance and pull the cash out of the deal to roll into another deal? It’s about seven to 12 years.
He’s looking at this like, “I’m going to give you a 50-year note, but you’re going to get greedy to the point where this is going to go up in value. You’re going to see a million dollars sitting on the table in equity and you’re going to go get a refinance at 5% with your bank, and I’m going to get paid all the way off.” I will have borne or bore 4% interest, which probably is more effective, is probably more at like a 12 to 14% rate considering that most of the payments I’m making are interest. It’s like 85% interest.

Dave:
That’s such a good point. Yeah, that’s such a good point that… If anyone doesn’t understand this, quick, as you said, you pay most of your interest in the first couple of years, but I appreciate this because it allows me to shamelessly plug my book that’s coming out-

Pace:
Yes, please.

Dave:
… which explains all of this. It’s called Real Estate by the Numbers. It’s available for preorder now on BiggerPockets, but it talks all about amortization and how loans work. That’s a really great point, Pace. Thank you for bringing that up, is that both as a buyer, it’s not great because you’re paying more money to the bank for the first couple of years. That’s why if you only hold the rental property for the first couple of years, you actually don’t do that well and it’s better to hold it for a long period of time, but if you are the seller, it’s completely different. If you’re seller financing, you’re making so much interest up front and that, I hadn’t even thought about that. That’s such an attractive option.

Pace:
Yeah, it really is, and if you really think about most investors strategies is that I go buy even a BRRRRR deal. I do a BRRRRR strategy. I’d take over a deal, sub-to. I’d buy something on seller finance. It’s going to appreciate, and you’re going to have some loan paydown, so what ends up happening is you go, “Where can I get some tax-free chunks of money?” You go refinance for four years, eight years, 12 years. We currently have close to…. We’re a little over a thousand doors right now in our portfolio, and I don’t have a single loan in my portfolio that’s older than seven years.

Dave:
Oh, wow.

Pace:
It just goes to tell you that we’re refinancing a lot. Like in December, we refinanced seven properties. We pulled a million and a half dollars out. We took that million and a half dollars, rolled it into new deals, and so most sellers that are savvy in seller finance, especially the multifamily world, most of those sellers, they bought their deals on seller finance. That’s how common this is. They are like, “Oh, of course, I’ll give you a 30-year note or a 50-year note because I know you’re not going to last 10 years.”

Jamil:
Pace, do you find that sellers in multifamily are more open to this seller finance are subject to structure than in single family? Or do you think it’s fairly even?

Pace:
It’s not even remotely close to even. It is so dramatically different. Sellers in the single-family realm, they’ve only bought one, maybe two properties their whole life, and so they don’t even remember what the word “escrow” means, let alone anything else. I’d say in the single-family realm, the first 300 deals I got in single-family, I surpassed that. That took me years to get that. In multifamily, I did that in a quarter because multifamily sellers, typically multifamily sellers used to be multifamily buyers. Going out and getting a commercial loan in multifamily requires a net worth requirement and it requires liquidity.
It is so challenging to go out and get a multifamily loan, and so most multifamily purchasers also use seller finance in order to get into the assets they hold today. It’s very common, and so when you say terms to a single-family seller, they go, “Wait, what? What are terms?” I tell the infamous F-150 story probably 50 times a week because it dumbs down what creative finance is to a single-family op or homeowner. When I talk to sellers on storage units, like A.J. Osborne, a lot of everybody knows A.J. Osborne. I was helping one of his acquisition guys the other day talk to a storage unit operator. I brought up terms and the guy’s like, “Oh yeah, I’m down for terms. You give me 20% down, I’ll carry the rest of the deal, all day long.”
A.J. Osborne’s team is like, “Oh my gosh, it was that easy?” I go, “Yeah, this guy probably bought it… I put the guy on mute, I go, “He probably bought this on seller finance.” I take him off mute and I go, “By chance, did you buy this asset with seller finance?” He goes, “Oh yeah, I buy all of my stuff with seller finance.” It so overwhelmingly common in the multifamily and commercial space because of the challenge of getting loans in that space.

Dave:
That’s really, yeah, I had never really thought about that, but yeah, I’m sure it’s so much easier for you to talk to people who have done this before. For those of us, myself included, who really just buy smaller things, it feels like no one would want to do this and that it would be a lot of education for single-family homes, but if you focus on multifamily, it sounds like there’s maybe just less resistance and there’s more comfort with it right off the bat.

Pace:
Yeah, I would say that 20% of what I’ve learned about creative finance has actually come from my sellers and a hundred percent of those sellers were multifamily sellers because these guys have owned, guys and gals, they’ve owned these assets for 20, 30, 40 years. They’ve taken the tax depreciation, they’ve done all the things, and now they’re at a point where like, “Where else can I put my money that’s safe? I can’t, and I don’t want to manage these anymore.”
This is what’s great about multifamily, too, and seller finance is that most of the operators in multifamily are Ma and Pa operators, which means they don’t have an operations manager, they don’t have an asset manager. They don’t even have property managers. Most of these people are going and physically knocking on the doors of their tenants and collecting rents on their 20-unit, 30-unit, 50-unit deals. When you ask for a P&L, some of them are like, “Huh, how about I just show you my bank account? I’ll show you my deposits.” That is very, very common in the 30- to 150-unit range.

Jamil:
Those sellers, because they don’t have a P&L, they can’t even… their buyer couldn’t even get a loan.

Pace:
No, and it is so common, so here’s what happens. A lot of them will go… Okay, like I’ve got a seller named Moe in Corpus Christi. He’s got 25 million in multifamily real estate. We just closed on 3 million of it and I’m slated to buy the next 25 million over the next two years from this guy. I’m going to like own 1% of Corpus Christi in two years. It’ll be great.” Moe, he started in life, a lot of these sellers started in life as business operators and they go, “All right.” Moe owned convenience stores. He goes, “Okay, I’m making money as a convenience store operator. I need to put my money somewhere I can get tax benefits.” They go to strip malls, they go to what they know. He’s already in a commercial building, so he buys the strip mall that he was renting in.
He then goes and buys multifamily, multifamily, multifamily. Gets to a point and goes, “Okay, I’ve got enough cash coming in. I really don’t want to operate this. This has become a nightmare for me.” Who do they hire? They hire their wife or their kids. They’re not going to Masterminds. They’re not learning how to scale their business. They’re not doing what we’re doing. These are old school people that have been doing this like with pencil and paper. Microsoft Excel is advanced for them legitimately.
You go to them and say, “Hey, I can take over this asset. I’ll pay you close to what you’re currently making now. You just got to let me get into this deal with very little money down, low interest, and give me a good runway that I can go and raise the rents and do something else with it.” Moe could not even… Moe goes, “Oh my gosh, you would take these off my,” this was a big paradigm shift for me. Everybody says, “Why do sellers do this? It doesn’t make sense.”
Then, Moe, my seller currently, is like, “Wait, you would take these off my hands and you would make a payment to me? Oh my gosh, this is like a dream come true. I have been sitting there dealing with tenants.” I go, “Well, Moe, the problem is you didn’t hire a property manager.” He goes, “Yeah, I don’t do well with people. I love my tenants, but I don’t like employees.” They don’t scale a business that is functional, and so you come in and you’re essentially taking over their business. It is so… It is like taking candy from a baby because we know how to scale and operate businesses.

Dave:
Yeah, but you’re not like stealing from them, you know? It’s not taking-

Pace:
No, I’m giving them more money-

Dave:
… from a baby.

Pace:
… than anywhere else.

Dave:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There’s just candy for everyone. You’re just helping them. You’re giving them almost it sounds like the same amount of capital that they need to live their lives, and you’re just taking over the asset, which is pretty incredible.

Jamil:
You think about that too, right? Because of the amortization schedule, they’re really getting all of that income right out the front, but guess what> They’re doing it without having to work now.

Pace:
The thing with like a cash deal that I… You know, we’ve done a lot of wholesale, a lot of wholesale, a lot of fix and flip. We still are very active in that business. I just don’t talk about it as much because it’s not my passion, it’s not where my heart lies. I love being ultra creative and figuring things out, and I could go on and tell you a whole bunch of stories about recent deals that we’re working on if we have the time. I look at a cash deal, and really when I’m going and buying, let’s say, a house that the ARV is $300,000. I could sell it on the market after I renovate it for $300,000. In order to make a good amount of money, I got to buy that for like 160, 170 because I know I’m going to have to go put 50 grand into it.
A seller has to sell a property to me for 50 cents on the dollar in order for me to make money, and so they’re getting something. Obviously, the house isn’t worth 300 grand in the condition I’m buying it in, but I’m basically buying all of that potential, and I have to really get my number as far down as possible for me to make as much money as possible. In creative finance, it is the only thing that I can make the seller win at a very high level, mitigate tax, have large amounts of money coming into them over time. Then, on my side, I can pay them more, but it actually becomes easier for me to acquire that asset because of the way I enter that deal. Zero dollars down or… I have not done a deal where I’ve put more than 7% down in, I don’t know, probably six, seven years.

Dave:
That’s crazy.

Pace:
It’s crazy. This deal with Moe, let me break this down really quickly. The deal with Moe, Corpus Christi, it’s the 30-unit, buying it for $3 million, so a hundred thousand dollars a unit. I go do… We get it under contract seller finance He wants 10% down. I go, “No, I’m not going to do 10% down, Moe. That’s crazy. All my other sellers are giving me 5% down.” He goes, “Okay, great.” “Well, I’ll give you 5% down.”
That’s $150,000. For most people that are new to this business, that seems incredibly daunting, and it is, but when I was brand new to this, that money wouldn’t come from me. I would just go to other people and go, “Hey, I’ve got a deal under contract. Who wants to be my financial partner? You bring the money, I bring the deal. We go 50-50.” Now, I’m 50% owner of a $3 million asset with no money out of my pocket, so 5% down. With Moe, it’s 3% interest, 50 years with him on the mortgage.
We go do the inspection and I go, “Man, in order for me to raise rents and take this asset over, I’m going to have to put a hundred thousand dollars into this $3 million deal.” I go to Moe and I go, “Hey, Moe, I’m still okay with putting a $150,000 down, but I want that $150,000 to actually go into the renovation.” Moe goes, “Okay, I’m cool with that.” I just want to make sure you’re going to operate this properly. My down payment is actually going into the renovation directly.

Dave:
Yeah. I mean, that’s why you call it seller or creative finance. It’s an incredibly creative way to use your money to mutually benefit both you and the seller. I’m curious, for Moe, this deal or the deal you were talking about before, have you done the analysis? Or do you think they would pencil if you were just using rates like-

Pace:
No.

Dave:
… if you just went to a bank and go… Just there’s no way, right?

Pace:
They won’t pencil unless you are okay with losing money for three years.

Dave:
No, that’s not pencil, right?

Pace:
No.

Dave:
I mean, I guess maybe for some people.

Pace:
I see some people… I saw a guy teaching creative finance. That’s why my first rule of creative finance is never lose money, even on day one. It’s never okay to buy a deal in the hopes that you’re going to raise the rents at some point to make the deal work. It needs to work-

Jamil:
Cash flow from day one.

Pace:
… day one, like maybe within 60 days because sometimes you got to improve it and get it filled up and whatever else, but definitely within the first 60 days. If I went down, for example, let’s look at the Mario deal. If I went down and I went to get a loan for that multifamily deal, my lender is going to give me… Right now, a commercial loan is about 6%. It’s double, it’s double what I’m paying, or it’s 50% higher than what I’m paying Mario.
Then, the lender is going to ask me to put about 30% down. That’s $900,000, and this is why people have to go and do syndications and funds is because they’re like, “Hey, guys, I got to go put 30% down on this deal. Let’s go pool our money together and I’ll give the lender 70% of the deal.” Guys, I didn’t have to raise any money for that Mario deal, and I’m a hundred percent the owner, no syndication, no fund because of the way that the terms allowed me to get into the deal.

Dave:
Do you think this is… I mean, sort of we asked this before, but is this just giving you more deal flow? Other people who aren’t considering seller finance just can’t make these deals work. Are you just finding that you can… You basically have a broader pool of deals to pull from because you have the ability to make deals work that people who aren’t thinking this creatively can’t make them work.

Pace:
Yeah. I’m like the guy in Santa’s shop that like I take all the broken toys that people screw up on and I make them better than what anybody else can. I’m in this little room by myself and I’m just tinkering around and making things work and people are like, “How did you do that?”

Jamil:
My community is cash buyer wholesale, and so a lot of the people we’re talking to that’s…. If we’re working agents, we tend to find if we can’t make a deal work based off of a cash price because maybe the house is too nice and it doesn’t need all these repairs or maybe the seller just doesn’t want to come off their number. What’ll happen a lot is people from my community will connect from people from Pace’s Subto community and they will create an opportunity there where normally there wouldn’t have been.
Even people in wholesale take note that this strategy adds a tremendous amount of tools to your tool belt because now when you’re… Say, for instance, you’re cold calling and you’re going direct to homeowners. They want a number that just doesn’t make sense for you. You can now monetize that because people are wholesaling these creative deals. My student body, they’re not all that interested in collecting property. They’re not super worried about depreciation or wanting to property manage or do the things that Pace is trying to do, but Pace is at a different season of his life and he wants to collect and have assets. There’s people that’ll pay assignment fees for these opportunities.

Pace:
I just paid a $210,000 assignment fee on a massive seller finance deal that I just bought, $210,000. People learn how to lock up the contract or at least get the seller interested, and then me or somebody on my team gets on the phone and actually works out all of the details. Then, I’ll pay somebody a massive assignment fee. That was 0% seller finance, so for me it made a lot of sense for me to pay a big assignment fee. They asked for 500,000. I’m like, “No,” but I ended up paying $210,000 to somebody for an assignment on a creative finance deal, so-

Jamil:
I think that was…. Was that an Astro student that you did that with?

Pace:
It was an Astro student, yeah.

Jamil:
Yeah, because I heard about that. It was a big win that we had on one of our support calls. They were like, “I just made $200,000 selling a deal to your best friend.”

Pace:
You know, it’s funny as I’ve got a text message right now from Ryan Larue, and if you remember at the-

Jamil:
He’s awesome.

Pace:
… very beginning of the show-

Jamil:
Yep.

Pace:
… Ryan is the guy that was between Jamil and I, that he was the guy pitting us against each other that ended up getting us a TV show. Ryan’s got a deal right now in Phoenix, 49 units, seller wants full retail for the multifamily. The challenge is he was in contract with somebody else buying it. What do you think happened to that contract?

Jamil:
Ooh, they walked away from their earnest money and had to tuck their tail between their legs because they couldn’t get lending.

Pace:
That’s exactly it. They locked the deal up. They put hard earnest money down. They were going to buy the multifamily with 30% down, get their lender to come to the table, and the deal had fell apart because interest rates came up. Ryan watches me. He’s not one of my students, but he watches me all the time. He goes, “This is the greatest thing.” He’s like, “I get one wholesaler that will bring me four or five deals a year that they’re like, ‘I don’t know what to do with this, but the guy says he is open to terms.’ I go, ‘Great. Let me get on the phone, and I work out terms.’”
It’s a 49-unit deal in Phoenix. Seller just wants his number. Here’s the thing thing for you to understand if you’re in the audience. Why do sellers like seller finance? They want to win at one thing. They want to win at their number. These guys are real estate investors at the end of the day. They look at things on spreadsheets. People don’t realize this. Wealthy people don’t have billions of dollars sitting in their bank account. They have assets that they add up and they go, “That’s my net worth.” When a seller is willing to sell something to you on seller finance, their number one priority is selling it at top dollar so they can say, “I won the game.”

Dave:
Yeah. They want that top line number. That’s what they care about because they’re like, “I bought it for X and I want it to double or I want to sell it for Y.” They’re willing to negotiate with you to make sure that that top line number is what they want it to be.

Pace:
I’ve got a really great single-family deal. I’d love to show it to you guys if we’ve got the time. Here’s the deal, so this is my document. You can see the seller who sold this house to me. By the way, I have their permission. They’re great, that we’ve done videos with them. We just closed on this deal, what was this? What was the date? July 15th, so roughly a month ago I closed on this deal. Single-family property, but it has two houses on it, literally two three-bed, two-bath houses on the same property. Look at what my monthly installments say, principal only. This lead came from a failed wholesaler locking this up at too high of a price and then trying to sell it to a hedge fund. The hedge funds, because of interest rates, they slowed down their buying, and in a lot of ways, just stopped buying altogether.
All these wholesalers are going around town canceling deals on sellers, and I come in and I’m just gobbling deals up. That was a zero down, zero percent interest seller finance deal with a seller. The same exact day, I bought a subject-to deal, same exact situation. The seller refinanced last year. I get a lot of sellers that have refinanced in the last two, three years, pulled out their equity, and now they’re in a situation where marketing softening, days on market have gone from three days on market to 90 days on market type of thing. Now, they’re like, “I can’t sell my house. I have very little equity, and now I’m getting low-ball offers.” We’re coming in and picking up houses left and right on sub-to because people are just saying, “Take over my house and give me 2,000 bucks for moving expenses and here’s my house. We’re just getting free houses with subject-to right now.

Dave:
That’s unbelievable and a good segue because I want to talk about subject-to, and I’m going to do a terrible job explaining what it is. You’ll do it better, but basically what it means if, correct me if I’m wrong here, is that rather than buying a house by taking out a loan in your own name or even using something like a death service coverage ratio loan, you’re basically just taking over the existing owner’s loan. To me, one of the main reasons I was so excited to have you on here today is that something like 50% of homeowners right now have a mortgage under 4%, right?

Jamil:
Yeah, wow.

Dave:
If you are trying to buy a home and 6% isn’t working for you, it just seems like a no-brainer for sub-to because you could assume you have a 50-50 chance that if you approach someone and they’re interested that that loan is going to be under 4%, which just seems incredibly attractive right now.

Pace:
Our average sub-to interest rate on all of our real estate-owned sheet is 3.2%.

Dave:
That’s crazy. That’s so good.

Pace:
That’s our average. We have deals, we have VA loans that are like 2.6%. We have so many, like my personal… the personal house I live in right now, it’s a… I bought this house for $3.3 million. Interest rate on it is 2.8% on a $3 million sub-to deal.

Dave:
Unreal, and if they’re similarly to seller finance, are you seeing a lot of willingness and deal flow right now? One thing-

Pace:
Yeah.

Dave:
… we talked about in the show is that there is this theory right now. Have you heard like the lock-in effect?

Pace:
Mm-hmm.

Dave:
Where people aren’t going to sell-

Pace:
Stuck in their houses.

Dave:
… because they don’t want to sell and pick up a new mortgage at 6% or whatever. I’m just curious if like sub-to deals are slowing down for you because people know that they’ve got something valuable at 3% and they don’t want to give it up?

Pace:
No, not at all, so here’s an interesting thing. I differentiate seller finance and sub-to in this way. Sub-to means the seller’s typically going through a painful situation. No matter what the economy’s doing, no matter what is going on, somebody’s always going through a divorce, somebody’s always going to lose their job. Something’s going to happen all the time. No matter what’s going on, the best of markets, the worst of markets, you’re not going to stop people from fighting with each other and getting divorced. These things happen.

Jamil:
Are you saying sub-to is great for like distress?

Pace:
Yep. Sub-to is pain. Distressful situation typically, and seller finance, so I call it pain and gain. Sub-to, it’s all about pain. Seller finance, it’s all about gain. That seller wants that gain. They want that top line number. That’s the most important thing to them. In sub-to, people are saying, “I can’t sell my house. It’s not selling. I need to get out of it.” Expired listings, if you guys want to go get a sub-to deal today, look at expired listings, thousands and thousands. I could pull up right now online public record. I could pull up thousands of expired listings just in the last 60 days in just Maricopa County alone.

Jamil:
You could just… Even easier than that, if you go… I mean, right now, I have a student who’s been cold calling real estate agents live and anything that’s sitting on the market even over 90 days, this doesn’t require you to go and do any research, guys. You can go right on to any of these platforms and look at days on market, 90 days or more, and you can call any of those real estate agents and ask them if their sellers would be open to terms. They are, “Really? Really? You want to do a deal? Oh my God, yes. Let me get my seller on the phone and let’s see if we can put this together.” It’s literally that easy right now.

Pace:
I’ve got a deal with an agent we just closed on last week. It was her first sub-to deal, and she said, “I had this property listed for 60 days. The homeowner had a job opportunity in New Zealand. He left thinking, ‘Hey, market’s hot. It’s going to sell in like a couple of days.’ He leaves, leaves the house vacant. Now, he’s got a mortgage payment he’s paying.” I come along. Somebody on my team calls. It was 60-day-old listing. We call the agent and we go, “Hey, what if we just take over the payments on that? Would the seller be open?” She goes, “Wait, that’s not possible. I’ve never heard of that before.” We go, “Well, if you talk to either our escrow officer or maybe our attorney, they can explain it to you that we do this all of the time, a few times a week just here in Phoenix, Arizona. She’s like, “Let me throw it by my seller.”
She calls the seller and the seller goes, “Oh yeah, subject-to? Yeah, I’ll do that all day long.” Seller knew what subject-to was and he was like, “I just don’t want to make the payment anymore. Take the house over.” It’s a five-bed, three-bath house. We’re turning it into an Airbnb. I took over payments. We paid the agent in that situation, so people always have that question. “Well, if you’re working a sub-to deal where you’re taking over payments and the seller’s getting basically no money, how do you pay the agent? Do you pay the agent?” Absolutely. Think about how most people buy houses. That’s a $700,000 house we’re taking over, by the way, a $700,000 house. If I’m a traditional buyer, how much money am I bringing in cash to the table to buy that deal? 150 to 200,000.

Jamil:
Yeah, 20%.

Pace:
I come to the table by paying this lady 20 grand in commissions. I’m $120,000 less to get into that deal than anybody else.

Dave:
You’re making the agent whole basically. You’re paying that 2.8-

Pace:
Yeah.

Dave:
… 3% commission or whatever.

Pace:
Basically the way I looked at it, too, is I bought the greatest testimonial from an agent you could ever ask for because she goes and she’s doing a video with us this week. She’s just like, “This is crazy that this solved my problem as an agent and my broker didn’t teach this to me. Nobody taught this to me. I thought that there’s no way that this is possible, and here you go.” She’s like, “I get listings that people come to me and they go, ‘I have no equity in this deal. Can you sell it?’ The agent says, ‘I can’t help you.’”

Dave:
Right.

Jamil:
Mm-hmm.

Pace:
This helps agents, it helps brokers, it helps the sellers. It is absolutely amazing. Going back to like what’s going on in the market right now, what I love about… The exit strategies are amplified as well because now, all of these buyers being told, “Interest rates are at 6%. You’re going to have to bring more money to the table,” all of this. If you’re a buyer, my sister McLaren, here’s a great example. My sister McLaren, she wants to move back to Phoenix, Arizona, and she’s like, Pace, everything’s 6%.” I’m like, “McLaren, just have your husband call on expired listings.” She calls an expired listings. Fourth phone call she gets ahold of is an agent who couldn’t even sell their own house. She’s moving into the house in two weeks, taking over payments, no money to the seller, expired listings.

Dave:
How does it work? Can you just explain quickly how it works with no money to the seller?

Pace:
The seller just says, “I don’t have enough, I don’t have any equity in the deal,” so why… If I-

Dave:
Oh, because they don’t have any equity, so they don’t even care. They wouldn’t make money even if they did sell it outright.

Jamil:
They’d actually have to come to the table with money if they were going to sell a traditional.

Pace:
Yeah, I’ve got a great… One of my favorite stories I ever had is a guy named Dave Byarsky. Listing was five and a half months old. The agent calls me up. She goes, “My listing’s going to expire in two weeks. I don’t know what to do. I didn’t know this guy didn’t have equity. He had just pulled cash out, refi six months prior. He has no money, and every time we get an offer, I have to deliver bad news that he’s going to have to cut a check for $40,000 to get rid of this house.” I go, “Okay, well, I can take over his payments,” and she’s like, “Would you? Would you?” I go, “Yeah, sure.”
Dave Byarsky, who’s now still a friend of mine, I go in and I say, “Hey, I can take over the payments.” He goes, “Amazing, so you’re telling me I don’t have to write?” It goes… Your mindset needs to go from, “Wait, why am I not paying the seller?”, to understanding that the seller’s going to say, “Wait, I don’t have to pay you anything?” Dave was so skeptical. He was like, “You’re going to send me an invoice or something. You’re going to send… There’s no way that… This is the seller says, ‘This is too good to be true.’” I am putting money in their pocket. I’m holding them back from having to deploy $40,000 to get rid of something they no longer want.

Dave:
Yeah.

Pace:
This is why we have to remind ourselves, “Don’t put your brain in the seller’s head.”

Jamil:
That’s so real though, guys, and I think a lot of people in the real estate investing space, the barrier to entry for them is always that.

Pace:
Mindset.

Jamil:
It’s your mindset. You’re not thinking the way that the other people are thinking. You have to step out of your shoes and you have to look at deals from the perspective of the different parties.

Pace:
Here’s a good action step for people that are wanting to know, “How do I go get a sub-to deal today?” Okay, go find expired listings. Google “expired listings” if you have to. There’s a hundred websites that sell expired listings, or if you have an agent in your local market, just call your agent and go, “Hey, can you pull all expired listings from the MLS?” Very, very simple. All you do is you call these people and you say, “Hey, I noticed your listing expired. Was there something you were looking for on the market that you were not able to receive?” That’s the question.
You let them talk and they tell you, “My agent this, they didn’t do open houses.” You’re going to hear them complain about somebody is now the common enemy is what I call it. You now have rapport you’re building. “Oh man, I’m sorry to hear that. I’m so sorry to hear that, I’m so sorry to hear that.” “Well, you know, me and my team, we’re buying properties. I’m wondering, would you be open to an offer of us making payments to you on that house instead of giving you a lump sum up front?”
It’s very simple. That is it. You’ve got people that were just beat up by the market and they obviously wanted to sell. They’re telling you on public record they want to sell their property. They’re also telling you on public record they weren’t able to, so you calling them, you’re going to be their savior. This is not hard sales. This is not, “Pace, how do I negotiate? Pace, how do I say the magical words?” Guys, they want to sell their properties and they were not able to do so.

Dave:
This is incredible advice, Pace. Thank you, and unfortunately, we have to go. You have incredible stories. I could listen to this all day, but we can’t. I got to ask you before we get out of here, you’re obviously very in tune with what’s happening in the market and the economy. What do you think’s going to happen just on a large scale in the housing market over the next couple of months? You think we’re going to see some declines? Or how do you see things playing out over the next year or two?

Pace:
You know, it’s interesting because there’s people on YouTube that are creating salacious material so that they can get clicks.

Dave:
It pisses me off.

Pace:
It’s really tough because like the only person I really watch is Dave, you, Dave, because you go through-

Dave:
[inaudible 01:02:35].

Pace:
… and it’s based on numbers. You actually go through. You analyze software. You look at what’s going on. There’s a couple of other people I really respect as well. Kenny McElroy, you guys have had him on your show. He’s epic. Outside of that, everybody else is just on YouTube trying to get YouTube to pay them Google AdSense, whatever it is.
Here’s what I look at. Interest rates change things dramatically. Jamil said something to me the other day. He says, “Pace, if I walk over to a thermostat and I turn that thermostat from 75 down to 68 degrees, wouldn’t I be crazy to think that that room was not going to cool off?” Like, “Well, yeah, of course, unless the air conditioning unit’s broken.” He’s like, “That’s the thing. The market is going to cool off because of interest rates.” It’s going to happen and it has happened. It’s slowed down our fix and flips. It’s slowed down a lot of things, but that’s a great thing. It resettles the sellers because really, where do deals come from? They come from sellers. The seller is the beginning of a real estate transaction.
When you settle down what their expectations are like, “I’m going to go sell the house on the market in 14 minutes,” then that gives us an opportunity to jump in and buy these types of deals. I’m happy about it. I know that the Fed is meeting again on I believe September 20th or September 21st. They’re 100% without a doubt raising rates again.

Dave:
Of course, yeah.

Pace:
Right. We saw what a rate hike did or a couple of rate hikes did to us this year. It doubled and tripled the days on the market, and I think that right now because lenders, they’ve basically hedged against that and they raised their rates a little bit higher than the Fed did. We’ve been actually seeing the lenders shrink down a little bit to accommodate that overexaggeration essentially. Right now, I think for like a month and a half, I think activity’s going to come back up a little bit, but on September 20th and 21st, we’re going to see another rate hike. It’s going to slow down. The last quarter of this year, if you’re in traditional real estate, strap in for a fun ride, but you’re not going to be priced out of the market. Your people are still going to be buying, it’s just that you got to be reasonable on your sales price.
For us in the fix and flip game, forget about creative finance, forget about wholesale. In the fix and flip game, what all of us have done is we have all been aggressive for the last two or three years. We know the ARV’s 300 grand and we still list the property for $350,000 because we now the market was hot the last couple of years. When we say, “Oh my gosh, our listing only sold for $310,000. We had to take a $40,000 price haircut.” It’s like, “No you didn’t, knucklehead. You sold it for 10 grand still over what it was worth.

Jamil:
Yeah. People are always like, “I’m losing money.” It’s like, “No, you’re not. You just made all this money. You just made slightly less than your dream pie in the sky amount that you were going to ask for was going to make you.

Pace:
I just think the rocket boosters are just slowing down. I still think that we’ve got a lot of growth. I think this is the greatest time to get into real estate personally, not just creative finance, but other stuff. I love the market. Somebody comes to me the other day, Dave, and they give me this alternative real estate investment, or not real estate investment, a different type of investment. I go, “Dude, all day long, the only thing I will ever invest my money in is real estate,” and I’m not wasting my time and energy anywhere else. It’s the safest, best, and this market, I’m excited about it.

Dave:
All right. I love it, and just to continue your analogy there, it’s like you turn it down from 75 to 68, 68’s still pretty warm, you know? It’s like it’s not-

Pace:
Yeah.

Dave:
… like it’s crashing. It’s not like it’s going to 32 degrees, and I completely agree with you. I think cooling is good. It’s good for everyone. It’s good for home buyers, it’s good for home sellers, it’s good for investors. I know there’s a lot of headlines out there, people are freaking out, but take it from Pace, Jamil. These guys are doing just dozens of deals every single week or every single month, and if they’re investing, it should give the rest of us who aren’t as active a lot of confidence and perspective about how to take advantage of this market.

Pace:
Love it.

Dave:
Pace, thank you so much for being here. I know you have so many different social medias and things, but if people want to learn more from you or connect with you, where should they do that?

Pace:
Go to YouTube and type in “BiggerPockets Pace Morby.” Go watch my BiggerPockets episode that I was interviewed last November. It’s a very, very popular episode.

Dave:
I listen to it. It was extremely good, and you really get into like the details of how to pull these strategies off, so that definitely… listen to that. I should have asked you this off the air, but you’re writing a book for BiggerPockets?

Pace:
Yeah, we are. We’re currently in the first round of editing right now. They’re cleaning up all my foul language and making it nice.

Dave:
Nice. We got two shameless book plugs into this podcast episode, which is great. Jamil, we’re going to have to get you to write one next.

Jamil:
I’m in the process.

Dave:
Oh, really? Excellent.

Jamil:
Yeah, The BiggerPockets First Wholesaling Book.

Dave:
Ooh, yeah.

Pace:
All right.

Jamil:
Yes, yes.

Dave:
We should start a little book club here. We’re all BiggerPockets authors now. All right. Well, Pace, Jamil, thank you guys both for being here. We really appreciate it.
Man, Jamil, that was awesome. Man, you get to listen to Pace talk every day, I guess, but, man, he’s-

Jamil:
All the time, man.

Dave:
… got incredible stories and he’s such a good storyteller. It is so fascinating to listen to him, and just one of the most unique approaches to real estate that I’ve ever heard.

Jamil:
Honest to God, and really guys, if you did not pick up a million dollars worth of game in this episode, listen again.

Dave:
Dude, I was just sitting here the whole time thinking like, “How do I get a sub-to deal? I got to start thinking about-

Jamil:
That’s it.

Dave:
… “seller financing.” It’s inspiring, honestly.

Jamil:
The best. He’s the best. Love him.

Dave:
It’s great, and I loved hearing the story of how you guys met. You know, you guys are such a duo. I was envisioning you had this like meet cute one time where you’re competing over a wholesale deal and your eyes locked and it was love-

Jamil:
Oh, it was-

Dave:
… at first sight, but-

Jamil:
… hearts and all the things.

Dave:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The romantic music started playing in the background, but-

Jamil:
It’s truly one of those friendships that’s so easy for me. I love traveling around the country with him. I’m godfather to his two daughters. You know, like-

Dave:
Wow.

Jamil:
… it’s… This is a real friendship, and it’s a friendship of my life. There’s nobody in the world that I’d rather be doing this with.

Dave:
Dude, I love hearing that because we talk, obviously, about economics and making money and all of this stuff here, but you want to have fun with your life. You want real estate investing not to be stressful or to this thing that you’re always worried about. You want us to have a good time, and I think you and Pace are such a good model of what a good business partnership/friendship can be and something we all-

Jamil:
Or-

Dave:
… probably aspire to.

Jamil:
… business competition because-

Dave:
I know, it’s so crazy.

Jamil:
… we compete so much. You know, we’re really not partners. We really compete. It’s just like, how do you love the guy you deck?

Dave:
Yeah, yeah. It is great, and I think it’s a good lesson for people because there’s you and Pace are such a good example of people who share so much information and you’re not afraid of competition. You’re not-

Jamil:
No.

Dave:
… withholding information or talking about your failures or successes because you’re worried someone’s going to compete with you. You can obviously… You gain more, you learn more by engaging with your competition and just engaging with the community in general, just like being a part of the larger real estate investment community has so much to offer. Thank you, everyone, for listening. We’ll see you all next time.
On the Market is created by me, Dave Meyer, and Kailyn Bennett. Produced by Kailyn Bennett, editing by Joel Esparza and Onyx Media, copywriting by Nate Weintraub, and a very special thanks to the entire BiggerPockets team. The content on the show On the Market are opinions only. All listeners should independently verify data points, opinions, and investment strategies.

Speaker 4:
Come on.

 

Mindy:
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast show number 330, Finance Friday Edition, where we interview Dan Sheeks, my daughter, Claire Jensen, and talk about the ultimate teen money hack for parents.

Dan:
The authorized user on a credit card is an amazing hack to start the teenager with a good credit score before they turn 18, having money conversations involving them and paying the household bills before the strategy we’ve talked about today is implemented. They should be involved with some of the decisions for the household budget. They should be clicking the mouse to pay the bills every month. Talk to them about budgeting. Have them start tracking their income and expenses, even if it’s as a teenager not a lot of money’s coming in and out.

Mindy:
Hello, hello, hello. My name is Mindy Jensen, and today is a family affair, plus Dan. My husband Carl is here today. You know him from 1500days.com and from the Mile High Fi Podcast.

Carl:
Woohoo. Thank you so much for having me.

Mindy:
That sounds weird.

Carl:
It’s early. My brain is not working yet. I don’t know what to say. I’m lost for words.

Dan:
I think it was perfect, Carl.

Carl:
Thank you, Dan. One person appreciates me. Claire, what did you think of my intro?

Claire:
I think that this is going fabulously so far.

Mindy:
It gets better, I swear, and also sitting beside me is my lovely 15-year-old daughter, Claire Jensen.

Claire:
Hi.

Mindy:
Carl and I are here to make financial independence less scary, less just for somebody else to introduce you to every money story because we truly believe financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you are starting.

Carl:
Scott is not here, that rhymes, so I get to read the next part. Whether you want to retire early and travel the world, go on to make big time investments and assets like real estate, start your own business or teach your children how to handle their finances, we’ll help you reach your financial goals and get money out of the way so you can launch yourself towards your dreams and more dinosaurs. I like dinosaurs.

Mindy:
Okay. Today’s episode is for you and your teen. Dan Sheeks is the teen authority, the author of First To A Million: A Teenager’s Guide To Achieving Early Financial Freedom, and he recently spoke at Camp FI Rocky Mountain, which is a weekend retreat that travels around the country for like-minded people where there are several speakers over the weekend. Dan’s talk was about teaching your teen about money, and it blew me away. I instantly thought two things. Number one, I want to do this with my kids, and number two, I want to get Dan on the show to talk about this method. So Dan Sheeks, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast.

Dan:
Great to be back. Thanks for having me. I can’t do a Carl Jensen intro, but I’ll do my best.

Mindy:
Well, you don’t have that dinosaur thing going on.

Carl:
You have to really work at it to sound as bad as me, Dan.

Dan:
I’ll keep practicing.

Mindy:
So Dan, when you were giving your talk at Camp FI, I poked Carl and I said, “I want to do this with Claire. I want to do this with our kids.” Daphne is 12. I think she’s a little too young for this. Why don’t you share your concept, a high level and then we’ll get into it a little bit deeper?

Dan:
Yeah. The high level version, I call the method the ultimate teen money hack for parents, meaning that this is something parents can use with their teenagers, and it’s, I think, the best way to introduce your children to money, how it works, how to handle it, how to be responsible with money while they’re still in your household, so they’re still under your supervision, under your control, you can monitor the situation. So then when they leave your house, they are good to go. They understand money. They’re responsible. They have good habits set in place versus what everyone else does, including pretty much everybody I know. The teen graduates from high school, they go off to college or elsewhere, and then they start learning how to handle their money as an adult, and things don’t always go well, should we say. So this is a strategy to help eliminate those problems.

Carl:
Dan, where were you 25 years ago or how long ago was I in college? A long time ago, but I came out of college with $60,000 in debt, and lot that was credit card debt, not a lot, but over 10,000. So Dan, if we could just go back time-

Dan:
Same.

Carl:
… after you’re done with this, if you could invent a time machine, we’ll go back and then you can set me right. I’d be far better off right now. Dan, how about you?

Dan:
I was the same way. I graduated college with lots of student loan debt and continued to rack up more, by the way. I’m working on that time machine, and if I can make it work, not only will I not take out student loans, I’ll be buying lots and lots of real estate back in my 20s. I wish I could do that.

Carl:
I will invest in that syndication deal.

Mindy:
Okay. So Dan, how does your system work?

Dan:
Yeah. So to get into the nuts and bolts, I won’t go into every single detail. I will say this, at the end, if there are parents listening or people who know someone who might be interested in a detailed PDF, I’ll give them my email address and people can shoot me email and I have something I can send them. So this is a way to get your teenagers in a place where they’re responsible and they’re comfortable and they’re confident with money before they leave your household.
So you’re basically going to give them full responsibility of their finances while they’re still in your house, and it’s almost full responsibility. I would say 90% because they are still teenagers and they still probably do need some supervision and definitely some training. So the plan is completely adjustable, customizable. So as I lay it out here today, everyone should just keep in mind that you can make tweaks. You can make changes. You can do things differently. You can change as you go through it. It doesn’t have to be exactly the way I lay it out right now.
To begin, the best idea is to start tracking the spending that you as a parent do or the money you spend on your child, everything from food, clothing, school expenses, insurance, their part of the cellphone bill, everything that you spend on your child. Now, that might be eyeopening, and that might be surprising if you start adding up all the money, but it also includes annual costs. So if they go to a summer camp or once a year if they have some other expense, that should be included in the tracking.
So the goal is, as a parent, to have a very, not exact, but a very good idea of how much money do I actually spend on, let’s say in this case, Claire, in a given year because what you’re going to do then is divide that by 12, and you’re going to give your teenager a stipend, a monthly stipend that they then use to pay their expenses, and we’ll get into how that works.
One of the other ways to prepare is that I would definitely have a savings account and a checking account set up for your teenager. If they’re under 18, then that would be a joint account, which is super easy to do. If they’re 18, you could just have them open up their own account, but you might want to help them do that. So they’re going to have their own checking and savings account.
Once you figure out how much that monthly stipend, and by the way, I don’t like to call it a stipend. I like to call the paycheck because the idea here is that you’re training them that they are going to once a month get this paycheck direct deposited into their checking account, and what that looks like is that the parent just transfers the money into their checking account let’s say on the first of the month every month. You can do it twice a month too if you want and just divide it by two. So they’re going to get their “paycheck” deposited into their checking account, and then they are responsible for budgeting that money to pay all their bills throughout the month.
A lot of those bills they pay are simply going to be them transferring back to their parents the money for let’s say food, cellphone bill, health insurance, possibly rent, if you want to throw that in there too. So that’s what it looks like in a nutshell.
Now, I’ve seen it done different ways where some parents will say to their teen, “You’re going to pay for all of your expenses except for housing.” So maybe they don’t charge them rent or, “You’re going to pay for all your expenses, except we will still pay for any food you eat in the house, but any food you eat at school or at a restaurant, even if you’re out with us at a restaurant, that’s going to be coming out of your account,” but again, it’s flexible. You can do it however you want.
So they are responsible for paying all of their bills. If they’d happen to have a part-time job where they have some other source of income or a different revenue stream and you know they make $200 a month from their part-time job, then you should include that in the calculation of how much their monthly stipend slash paycheck should be because I think it’s even more powerful when the teenager realizes that when they pay every bill, part of that money is money that they’ve earned, and it teaches them the value of the dollars. So if they do have a part-time job or some other source of revenue, then incorporate that into … Don’t just let them keep all that. Have them use some of that to pay their bills.
Then so every month they’re paying their share of the bills. They can use their debit card and their checking account to buy things on their own. If they go out to Chipotle or Jimmy John’s, debit card. They can transfer money back and forth to parents depending on the bills themselves. Now, as a parent myself, here’s some extra things I would throw into that. I would teach them that when that monthly paycheck comes in to their checking account from you, that they first pay themselves first.
So they get trained that if that, and let’s just make some easy numbers here, if that’s $1,000, that X percent of that is going to go into maybe their savings account for some future investments or their future self, right? So teach them to pay themselves first right out of the gate with this system. Teach them what a weekly expense looks like, monthly expense, yearly expense, and how they need to budget for that. So if the sports camp costs $1,000, they should be putting away X amount of dollars per month, so that when that expense comes up in let’s say July, that they have the money to pay for it. They need to plan ahead for that annual expenditure that might be a big number.
They should also create an emergency fund. Perhaps that’s a second savings account. They’re putting money into that until they have three to six months of their expenses saved up. They can think about long-term savings for family vacation or investing or giving. Do they want to donate any of this money? Then their own fun and entertainment, budgeting for that stuff. So they will be paying for everything.
If the family goes out to a restaurant, let’s say they go to Applebee’s and they’re sitting down. They’re separate checks, right? So the teenager is going to order items off the menu knowing that at the end of the meal, they’re going to pay for their check with their debit card and their parents aren’t going to cover it. This will create a situation where they start looking not just at the menu items, but the prices, and they’ll start asking themselves, “Is this $6 dessert worth it? Am I really willing to spend $6 because it’s mine, and if I don’t spend it, I get to keep that $6?” So it forces them, clothing, looking at, “Do I want the name brand clothing versus maybe something from a low-end store or even a secondhand store?”
They should pay their share of the utilities, their share of the cellphone bills, school supplies, toiletries. If they have a car, then they should be taking care of all their car expenses, the maintenance, the gas, the insurance. They pay for their haircuts, their gym membership, everything, but as a parent, you’re giving them enough money. The idea is that they’re not going to run out. You’re giving them enough money and you’re allowing them to teach themselves how to budget.
The last thing I’ll say as a parent, and this is maybe the most important is you have to be able to let them make mistakes. Don’t rescue them before the mistake. So if they spend more than that’s in their account, let them do that and feel what it’s like to pay a fee to the bank because they overdraw in their account. If they missed a payment and it’s late, and as a parent, you could have due dates for some of your bills, then they have to pay a surcharge for that late payment and let them feel what it feels like to have to pay an extra $20 because they forgot to pay it on time.
If they’re learning these lessons in the house before they’re out in the real world, and you as a parent can monitor and make sure everything is going well. Last thing I’ll say is that if they do run out of money, the idea is then that they’re not going to be able to buy the things they need. You as a parent, you could step in, and I recommend giving them a short-term loan. So maybe you loan them $500 with some interest, so they can feel how that works, so that they can pay their bills for that month, and then they need to budget for paying back that loan in the following months. So that’s the down and dirty idea and, yeah, if you have questions, we can go into it.

Mindy:
Oh, we have questions. I love this. The reason that I love this is because, like Carl said, when he turned 18, he went to college and it was just like, “Here you go. You turn them loose,” and what happens? You get on campus. I think they’ve changed this now, but we’re old. You get on campus and they’re like, “Hey, would you like a free T-shirt? Sign up for this credit card?” and now you’re in debt for tens of thousands of dollars for a free, stupid T-shirt that you don’t even wear. You sleep in it maybe or do you still have that T-shirt, Carl?

Carl:
No. I have the Frisbee, though.

Mindy:
Oh, okay. Sure. So you’ve mentioned debit card. One thing that the FI community really goes nuts over is credit cards and credit card points. Do you have any guidance on credit cards with points attached? I know because she’s 15 she can’t get a credit card. I know this because I tried to get a credit card for her because they sent her an application and they’re like, “Why did you fill this out? She can’t get one until she’s 18.” I’m like, “Well, you sent it to me.” So we might do a joint card with her as an authorized user. Do you have any comments on that?

Dan:
Yeah, do it. Absolutely. I didn’t mention that, but yes, you nailed it. If they’re under 18, then I would open up a credit card account. Technically, it’s in the name of the parent, but you add the teenager as an authorized user, and they’re the only ones that use it, right? So they get their own credit card with that account, with their name on it. They can use their credit card. They can start to see and learn what it feels like to build up points, and then also, and this is a bonus, a huge bonus, not many people know this, but even though they’re a minor at that point, most of the time, those credit card payments if they’re using it, those monthly hopefully on time credit card payments will build the minor’s credit score and credit history even though they’re not 18 yet, and then that will carry over into their adult life. So I think a credit card is a great way to go, but I would make sure it’s a separate account that the parent never uses, only the teenager.

Mindy:
Yeah, and an added bonus for that is because Carl and I have 800 plus credit scores, once she turns 18, our credit score, because she’s an authorized user on our card, transfers to her. So she’ll be 18 years old with an 800 credit score.

Dan:
It’s not as hard as you think to get a high credit score when you’re young. I have many members in my community that have done it in the first year to two years after turning 18. Their credit scores are in the upper 700s. Even though their history’s short, everything on the report, everything on their history is solid. They’re making on-time payments and they’re managing it well, but if you do make one mistake when you’re young, it has a much more significant hit to your score than an adult.

Carl:
There’s one thing I really, really like about this strategy, and I’ll back up a second. I talked a little bit about my big money mistake on episode 335 of BiggerPockets Money. Is that correct, Mindy?

Mindy:
Yes.

Carl:
Okay. Yeah. It was episode 335. After I had my first job, it wasn’t too long after that that the great recession came, and what I did is I stopped investing. So at the best possible time to invest money, the stock market was on sale, I freaked out and stopped, and that was a big mistake that’ll eventually cost me probably millions of dollars if I live long enough.
So the thing I really like about this, Dan, is this gives them an opportunity to make the mistake when it’s not going to be that bad. If you’re 15 and you get your stipend or payment on the first of the month and you go to the mall and go crazy and blow it all and you have to get a loan, that’s something that a lot of people might not learn until they’re in their 20s, but this is an opportunity to do it when you’re 15 or 16 or 14, and by the time you’re in the real world and a real functioning human adult, you’re going to be set. You’re going to have it figured out. Well, you might not have it completely figured out, but you’ll be in better shape than most.

Dan:
I agree, and I’ll add this to it. So Carl and Mindy, your two daughters, which I need to say this, by the way, we all got to hang out at Camp FI. I met Claire and Daphne and we hung out and they were great with my son, Callum. Your daughters and, Claire, don’t let this go to your head, but your daughters are amazing. They are super mature, well-rounded, awesome young women, and I mean this. If my son Callum turns out to be half as amazing as your daughters, I’ll be very, very happy. They’re awesome kids, and they have the benefit of having Carl and Mindy Jensen as parents.
So without a doubt, these two, you’re Claire, and I don’t want to talk about you, you’re here, Claire and Daphne are ready to implement this strategy. I don’t have any doubt, but I would say to other parents, don’t just throw your child into this as the only thing you ever have done. This needs to be preceded by many money conversations and other things that you do in your household, including them in the household bills and budget and stuff. I wouldn’t just do this out of the gate. This is, like I said, it’s the ultimate teen money hack. So it needs to be the finale of when they’re with you at home to before you send them out into the real world.

Carl:
I’ll make one other quick comment. The other thing I really like about this is not that my children do this, but if they decided they wanted to stay in the shower for an hour, they’re going to pay for that. They’re going to directly see the results, and I’m not quite sure how to meter her that, maybe a device on the shower-

Dan:
I don’t know either.

Carl:
… a timer like, “Claire, hit the timer when you start.” Claire, you don’t do this, but I know other people who have kids who this is an issue with and, “Sure, you could take that hour shower if you want, but guess what? You’re going to pay for it.”

Dan:
It’s an extra five bucks.

Carl:
Yup.

Claire:
A way to save money. I’ll just not shower. Does that work?

Mindy:
Ew. No.

Carl:
Okay. Now, we’re getting into super lean fire.

Claire:
Just kidding.

Dan:
Well, that brings up a good point because Claire just said she would just not shower, which isn’t really an option, but what you will find when your teenagers are going through this system is that they will start finding ways to be frugal that will, I think, impress you. So not showering every day hopefully isn’t one of those, but being more selective at a restaurant. I think if the parent does decide to not charge them, I don’t know if that’s the right word, for the food they eat in the household, it’s really difficult to estimate what the value of the food they eat in the household is because if you did, the teenager is just going to sneak down in the middle of the night, eat everything in your fridge, and then not tell you about it.
So usually, parents will just say, “Anything you eat in the house is free,” and if that’s the truth, then you might see your teenagers start packing a lunch for high school as they go to school instead of going out to lunch or eating in the cafeteria and paying because that saves them money. So you’ll start to see changes in the way they purchase things, fun things, clothes because they know that if they don’t spend that money, it’s theirs, they get to keep it, and that’s a different feeling than, “Mom and dad just buy everything I need, and I don’t get to keep anything left over.”

Mindy:
To be clear, the not showering thing was the joke. I’ve met her. That’s not going to happen, but, Claire, what questions do you have about this plan and what do you think of this plan?

Claire:
First off, I love it because I think it was probably when I was two, ever since I was two I wanted independence. So this is a fun way to experience it while also having it be preparation for the real world, which I think is fun. I don’t know. It feels like growing up in a FI family just feels like a really fun game because I’ve been prepared for the future my whole life.

Carl:
Claire, do we ever talk about money in our house?

Claire:
All day every day.

Carl:
Do you know what an index fund is, Claire?

Claire:
Yes.

Carl:
Do you know what the value of Tesla stock is or the current state of the S&P 500?

Claire:
Yeah, roughly.

Carl:
Good.

Dan:
She passed the quiz.

Carl:
Claire, do you have any questions for Dan or-

Claire:
So I have a couple questions. The first one is what happens if my parents want to go on a vacation because I went to Europe earlier this summer with my school trip and I had to pay for the whole thing or my portion of it because that was a trip that I chose to go on, but I feel like my parents usually choose to go on trips. So do I get allotted more money for that? Do I have to pay for it from my own allowance? Do we calculate that into the yearly fund? How does that work?

Dan:
Good question. So you’re talking about a vacation that the family is planning to go on.

Claire:
Yup.

Dan:
Yeah. So in my mind, this is how I would do it as a parent. I would set it up this way. I would say, “Claire, we are going to Disney World in June, and you’re going, but as you know, you are going to pay for your slice of that vacation, and we have built that into the stipend.” Most families don’t. They take a big vacation every year or it’s somewhat consistent. So Claire then, on that vacation, would pay for her own airfare, her slice of the hotel, her own admission ticket to Disney World, her souvenirs, her food in the park, and her bill in the restaurants that they go to.
If as a parent, and I think any discussions about money are advantageous. So if the Disney World vacation was going to be more expensive than the average, then I think the parent and teen should sit down and say, “All right. This is going to be way more expensive than what I was budgeting for or what we had thought about. So parents, I need a little extra money for this vacation. Can you give me a little extra in the next three or four months so I can save up for this vacation that’s more expensive than the average average one we take?”
The parents might come back and say, “Well, we’ll give you a little bit extra, but to earn more, I want to see some more chores around the house or some more clean up the backyard or something like that, and then we’ll pay you some extra money to help you afford your vacation to Disney World because you are going.”
At Camp FI, someone asked the same question, and there were teenagers there, and I think it was Sarah Grace who said, “Well, what if I just don’t want to go? What if I just say I don’t want to go to Disney World and I get to save all that money?” I mean, that’s not the point. Family vacations are important. So as a parent I would say, “Well, you’re going and you’re paying for your share,” but as you know, together have the conversation to find out what’s the best way to plan and budget and give them the money that they would need to actually pay for it.

Mindy:
I did think that was funny that they both had the same first question.

Dan:
I don’t know what that says about all teenagers that they would even consider not going on vacation with their family to save a couple thousand bucks, but it’s probably not a bad thought to have.

Claire:
FI kids, they’re a whole other brand. So I had another question that I thought of while you were talking about that. Do we still get paid for chores around the house?

Dan:
I think so. Yeah. Yes. Anything that you’re doing around the house that’s extra, I think, yes, you should get paid, but if the family’s doing an allowance, I think that would go away just like a set allowance no matter what because that would be part of the stipend or paycheck, if you will.

Carl:
Claire, I’ve got some big construction projects coming off, if you would like to learn how to tile or frame or even run electricity, I’m very safe. I’ve only shocked myself a couple times. You’ll be safe. You can earn extra money.

Claire:
Okay. First of all-

Carl:
How do you feel about that?

Claire:
… I would love to learn how to tile. Second of all, I’ve gotten electrocuted by my light switch before.

Mindy:
Shocked. Electrocuted is different.

Claire:
Shocked, whatever. I got shocked by my light switch.

Carl:
Yeah, that was my fault. I didn’t put the switch plate cover on on time.

Mindy:
Yeah. Just don’t touch the hot wires.

Claire:
Okay, great.

Mindy:
Okay. Back to the questions.

Claire:
Yeah. What happens if there’s money left over at the end of the month or year, however, whatever segment you’re paying it in? Do we just get to keep that and put it in our savings?

Dan:
Well, assuming, so when you say money left over, I’m going to assume that is money left over after you’ve put money away for what you know are your annual expenses. So if there’s a sports camp in the summer and it costs 500 bucks, you’re putting a little bit of money away every month so when that sports camp comes up, you have the money to pay for it. So if you have already allotted for all of your big annual expenses and there’s money left over, awesome, it’s yours. You as a teenager get to decide what you do with that money. It can go into savings. It can go into an investment. It can go into a new snowboard or a new video game or a really nice dinner out with your boyfriend, girlfriend. If there’s money left over, yeah, it’s yours. You get to do what you want with it.

Claire:
Cool. I like that plan.

Mindy:
It could go into your emergency fund so that you could continue to save for these big expenses.

Claire:
The amount of knowledge I have about an emergency fund, I could write a whole book.

Dan:
I will say my answer, I was assuming the emergency fund was already funded, yeah, you would want to get your emergency fund to a place where it’s set before you started spending extra money.

Claire:
Can the amount of money fluctuate each month? If we’re doing something that costs more like a sports camp, I know I go to camp every summer, so do we get allotted more money for that month to cover it?

Dan:
The idea is no, that the paycheck is the same every month because when you work for a company, unless you have some bonus or commission, your paycheck is the same every month. However, again, going back to what I said at the very beginning, this is customizable. It is adjustable. It is flexible. So if the parents and the teen agree that things are a little off, then absolutely it can change or there can be a one-time “bonus” for a month, summer bonus to cover some expenditures in the summer.
It’s not like all the decisions are made and then they’re done. The parents and the teen will be communicating hopefully often, weekly, if not more often than that, about how things are going. The parents can monitor the checking account because they have access to it. They can monitor the debit card. They can monitor the credit card. They can monitor the savings account, which they should do, and if changes need to be made, then talk about it, agree on it, and make those changes.

Mindy:
Ooh, Scott and I talked about having a money date with your spouse. I’m trying to find that episode. I can’t find it, but I think having a money date with your child where you go over once a month or maybe even over the first month, once a week you come in, “How’s it going with your spending? How is it going with your budgeting, and how do you feel about the amount of money that we gave you?” because I’m assuming you help guide them with budgeting. It isn’t just, “Hey, we listened to that Dan Sheeks and Claire Jensen episode, we’re going to do that. Here’s $1,000. Good luck.”
I’m assuming that if you’re planning on doing this, it’s because you love your children. You want to teach them about money. So you’re going to sit down and show them. I mean, you could show them how to track their spending by showing them my budget over at biggerpockets.com/Mindysbudget, where I am tracking my spending. Have you seen that?

Claire:
no.

Mindy:
Oh, okay. Well, you’ve heard me talk about it, right?

Claire:
Yeah.

Mindy:
Yeah, all the time, and having a way to track your spending so you can see where your money’s going. It’s one thing I think to have $1,000, and it’s quite another to be like, “Wait. I got $1,000 yesterday and now I have a 1.50 left. Where did that money go? Oh, I forgot. I had to pay mom rent, and I had to pay for my share of the utilities, and I had to pay all of these things. I don’t really have $1,000 a month. Now I have $300 that has to get me through the rest of the month.” So I think that would be really important. We’re going to talk about money more, Claire.

Claire:
Oh, great.

Carl:
One thing I’d like to do for Claire, just to get a quick question for me, is the investing portion. Once she has a job that has reportable income, I’d like her to open up a Roth IRA and I would like to match her contributions 100%. That’ll really help her get ahead in the future, and it’ll also incentivize her to really save. Hey, Claire. For every dollar you invest, I’m going to give you another dollar, an instant 100% return. What do you think about that, Dan?

Dan:
I think that’s great. I think that would be separate from this whole strategy. I think that would just be something where you say, “It’s not included in the monthly stipend paycheck. It’s not included in your expenses. It’s just something I want to do for you, but in the strategy, you need to save money to invest in that IRA, that Roth IRA so that I can match it,” and let them budget for that.

Claire:
Okay. Yeah. I love that. I love that plan.

Dan:
You love free money, right?

Claire:
Oh, yeah. It’s my favorite.

Carl:
Claire, do you have any other questions for Dan?

Claire:
Yeah, I had one last one. It’s smaller and it might be more of a personal thing. If we’re paying for the meal at the restaurant and then we get separate checks, do we also pay for the tip?

Mindy:
Mm-hmm. That’s your expense.

Claire:
No, I like that idea. I’m just clarifying.

Carl:
You’re clarifying.

Claire:
Knew you were going to say that.

Dan:
Oh, I like that one. That’s good. That’s a teacher joke. Nice one. Probably the 1,510th time Claire’s heard it, but first time I’ve heard that one. I like it.

Mindy:
Now every Claire student that Dan has is going to hear it.

Dan:
Yeah.

Mindy:
Okay. So Dan, at what age or level of maturity do you recommend parents start thinking about this ultimate teen money hack because I know my kid is 15. I probably could have started this with Claire when she was 14. She’s 15 and a half, actually, almost 16. I don’t know that Daphne is ready at 12 and a half. She’s in seventh grade. Claire’s in high school. Where do parents start thinking about this?

Dan:
I think it’s probably right about where Claire is. I think let’s start from the back end. If you know they’re going to move out of your house at let’s say age 18, I think a good length of time to run this strategy with them would be around a year to get through at least one full year. So I would think that the latest you’d probably want to do it is about a year before they graduate high school or right about there, so around age 17. The earlier you can start it, the better, but most teenagers are not Claire. To start them at 13, 14, 15 might be too early, but it really is a case-by-case basis.
Most people listening to this podcast who are parents probably are somewhat similar to the Jensen family, where they’re having money conversations with their teens, I hope. So that age could be lower. It could be around freshman in high school, but if the family’s just beginning to have money conversations, then you might wait a year or two. Again, like I said, the ultimate team money hack for parents isn’t something you just do out of the gate. It’s the finale. It’s the end of their journey with you learning about money. There’s other things you should be doing ahead of time to set them up for success in this strategy.

Mindy:
Awesome. Dan, are there any other suggestions or tips that you have for parents who are listening to this and are as blown away about it as I was when I heard you share it at Camp FI?

Dan:
I mean, I have dozens and dozens of tips for parents. Yeah. I could go on and on. I think one tip I would give parents is the book that I have, First To A Million, which is published by BiggerPockets. Thank you to BiggerPockets. It’s meant for the teenager, but as a parent, buy that book, read it yourself, and then give it to your teen and talk about all the different topics and strategies that are in the book, and then buy them the workbook and have them work through that. I wrote those things just for teenagers, and parents definitely need to be involved with that.
The authorized user on a credit card is an amazing hack to start the teenager with a good credit score before they turn 18. Having money conversations, involving them in paying the household bills before the strategy we’ve talked about today is implemented. They should be involved with some of the decisions for the household budget. They should be clicking the mouse to pay the bills every month. Talk to them about budgeting. Have them start tracking their income and expenses even if it’s as a teenager not a lot of money’s coming in and out, but have them use mint.com or some other free app to track their expenses and their income so they can see where their money’s going. There’s so many things. There’s so many things.

Carl:
Yeah. I’ll second your book, Dan. While I was reading that, I know it’s geared towards getting your kids’ finances together, but as I was reading your book, my thought was, “Wow. There’s a lot of adults who could really benefit from the knowledge in this too.” One of the things I liked about your book is it’s all encompassing. I would say you don’t go super deep. You’re not going to go into a simple path to wealth depth on why index funds are the right answer, but you cover it and you mention it. So your book is a great starting point for a lot of different topics.
The other thing I want to say about you, Dan, is I had the honor to go to your book launch party, and I met a lot of members of your tribe, the SheeksFreaks, and seen these young people who are 21 years old just inspired by you and killing it in life. So inspirational. These people who say, “I can’t do this,” look to the SheeksFreaks. You can do it and, Dan, you can point people to a lot of examples. Super cool.

Dan:
Speaking of which, we need to get Claire in the SheeksFreaks group.

Claire:
I just started reading the book and it is so good, but yeah, I would love to join the group.

Dan:
Awesome. Awesome.

Mindy:
Yeah. Thanks, Dan. She’s reading your book. She’s like, “This is amazing. I’m learning so much,” and Rachel Richards spoke at Camp FI and she’s like, “That was so great. I learned so much from Rachel.” I’m like, “Are you kidding me? You know I’ve been telling you all the same stuff, right?”

Dan:
Welcome to my life as a teacher. For those who don’t know, I’m a high school teacher and I will talk about certain things over and over and over in class, and then I’ll have a guest speaker come in and say the same thing and my students are like, “Why didn’t you ever tell us about that? That’s so awesome.” “I’ve told you 10 times.” It’s much like being a parent. Yes.

Mindy:
Claire, do you have any final thoughts about this?

Claire:
I can’t think of anything right now. I mean, I probably will as soon as we hit stop recording.

Mindy:
That’s how it goes.

Claire:
Yeah. I’m just honestly really excited.

Mindy:
Okay. Well, we’re going to try this for a couple of months and we’ll come back and check back in with you around November. So after you’ve done this for August and September and October, we’ll circle back. Dan, I’d love for you to join us again as well to check in with Claire and see how her spending and budgeting is going. Carl, you and I have some homework to do to figure out how much money we’re going to be giving Claire, and we’ve got a credit card to look into. Yeah, don’t get excited about that credit card, girl.

Claire:
I’m scared of credit cards to be honest.

Mindy:
Just don’t spend everything.

Claire:
I won’t.

Mindy:
Credit cards aren’t scary. Credit cards can be really a powerful tool if you use them right, and they can get you into a lot of trouble, but luckily, your bossy mom will be there to teach you how to use it right.

Claire:
I know.

Mindy:
Dad will be there too.

Dan:
If you don’t want, Claire, if you don’t want your parents telling you how to use your credit card, keep reading First To A Million and that will tell you exactly how to do it.

Claire:
Okay. Will do.

Mindy:
Okay. Dan, you mentioned that you would share your email address so people can reach out and get a PDF about this plan. Please tell people where they can find you.

Dan:
Yeah. So [email protected], and SheeksFreaks is S-H-E-E-K-S-F-R-E-A-K-S. I’m sure you’ll put that in the show notes. So if you’re a parent or if you know someone who has a teenager that would maybe be interested in this strategy, just send me an email and I have a PDF I can send you that goes over everything we talked about today and then a little bit more too.

Mindy:
Awesome. Dan, I really appreciate you inventing this idea. I really appreciate you sharing it at Camp FI. Shout out to Stephen Baughier, the founder of Camp FI, for bringing you there to introduce this to us. The beauty of this plan is the simplicity, and yeah, the beauty of this plan is the simplicity in it to teach your child how to handle their finances while they still have the safety net of living with you. I’m super excited to see what Claire does with it.

Dan:
I am too, and I’m excited to check back in. I need to do this. I should have said this at the beginning. A shout out to my buddy, Adam Carroll, who actually planted the seed for this strategy a few years ago on one of his Ted Talks, I think. By the way, parents of teenagers, I will pitch this for Adam, he has a documentary called Broke, Busted, and Disgusted, and it is about the student loan debt crisis in America that every parent and every teenager, frankly, should watch. Broke, Busted, and Disgusted, Google it. Yeah. So Adam Carroll is probably the founder of this idea. I definitely took it to the next level, but I want to give him credit.

Mindy:
From episode 330 of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, we’ve been joined today by Dan Sheeks, Carl Jensen, and Claire Jensen. I am Mindy Jensen saying it’s all about the Benjamin’s baby.