Brandon: This is the BiggerPockets podcast show 537, where today we’re going to be breaking down five of our favorite I’m going to call them pivot books, books that pivoted our life, five from David, five from me. That’s what’s coming today.

David: If you don’t think you’re worth wealth, you’ll find a way to sabotage buying that duplex. You’ll find a way to take that deal that comes across your path and convince yourself that you don’t deserve it and so you won’t pursue it. It’s a struggle I think a lot of listeners are in.

David: So I’m not saying that that book is a cure all for everybody, but definitely the questions that book made me ask myself, is there really something wrong with me or did I not get something that I needed earlier? That instead of crying about it every day, I can actually go take steps to get it now, will help you get over these hurdles that you watch other people accomplish seemingly effortlessly.

Brandon: What’s going on, everyone? It’s Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets podcast, the show where it’s our mission to teach you how to become financially free through real estate. Because here’s the deal: we believe real estate investing is the number one greatest way for the average person to build wealth in our world today.

Brandon: I love it. I’ve been doing it forever. David here has been doing it forever. And not just us. We prove it to you by bringing you stories of people who started out right where a lot of you are right now. And they applied this info, this simple, but not always easy, but simple lessons from the show, especially like the ones you’re going to learn today, to provide for their family, to quit their job, or just to make working that 9:00 to 5:00 job optional.

David: So if you are just starting out, you’re probably looking for the right book or books to help get you plugged into the correct mindset. I’ll also say there probably aren’t two better qualified people to teach average people how to build wealth than Brandon and I, because we are both incredibly average.

Brandon: Incredibly average. Maybe even a little below average in my case. That’s okay. We made it. We figured it out.

David: So today, Brandon and I are going to break down five books or more that had a big influence on our mindset and the direction that we took to get further into investing in real estate and to build more wealth. We’re going to talk about how they influenced us, what we earned, maybe what we were like before we read those books and how things changed afterwards and how they helped determine the direction that our life would take to get us where we are now.

Brandon: Yeah, very good. We don’t have a quick tip today necessarily. I think we’re kind of changing how the quick tip’s done in the intro here. But I do have a quick tip for you right now, and that is to listen to the whole episode. I’ve got kind of a huge, big announcement to make a little bit later in the show. So hang tight for that. You’ll hear that coming up.

Brandon: But one more thing: if today’s show gets you pumped up about books and you’re a book reader and you like books, so the BiggerPockets bookstore has a huge sale going on for Black Friday and Cyber Monday, but it’s only through November 29th. That’s tomorrow if you’re listening when the show comes out. So go to biggerpockets.com/sale to get the 60% off, with some items as low as six bucks. That’s biggerpockets.com/sale to take advantage of Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals while they last.

Brandon: Now, one more quick thing. Today’s show, we’re not actually talking about BiggerPockets books. So BiggerPockets is a publishing company. We’ve published dozens of books at this point. David’s written a bunch. I’ve written a bunch. We’re not going to talk about those today because we wanted to give you books that were influential in our lives that we’ve read.

Brandon: But obviously go check out the books in the BiggerPockets bookstore. You can find the bookstore there in the navigation bar. That said, I think it’s pretty much time to get in today’s episode. David, are you ready?

David: I am super ready, man.

Brandon: Okay. Well, why don’t you kick us off with a book that made a big impact to you? I think we’ll go back and forth. We’ll do five books each and we’ll see where that takes us.

David: So this is a book I talk about a lot and I always mentioned don’t judge it by its title, because I did not read this book for two years because the title, Pitch Anything, just made it sound like it was really pitchy. I don’t like the idea of sort of getting somebody to do something that they don’t want to do.

David: Sales has that connotation is I’m tricking you into something and this idea of Pitch Anything really soured me. But the book is incredible. The content is like nothing else that I’ve ever read. The author breaks down, what it really is, is it’s how to develop the ability to get people to see things from your perspective.

David: And if you think about any argument you’ve ever been in that lasted for a really long time, it was because you were trying to get the other person to see it the way you see it and they were trying to get you to see it the way that they see it. And both of you just smashed each other until the one who was either weaker or wasn’t as determined to win gives up.

David: The problem is they rarely ever actually see it from your side. They just tap out. And so you have that problem again later. This book helped me in so many ways in life. The author talks about the concept of frame control, which is basically how you establish credibility in a relationship so people are more likely to listen to what you have to say.

David: How the human brain processes information in three ways: the croc brain, the mid brain, and the neocortex. And that the croc brain is responsible for evaluating every bit of stimulus that comes to it as, could this kill me? And it’s always assuming something bad’s going to happen.

David: And then the mid brain will jump in and it will say, “Well, based on the stimulus that I got, compared to other things I’ve seen that look like this, how does this weigh in?” And then finally the neocortex is where we actually use logic and reasoning and rationale.

David: One of the biggest mistakes that we make when we’re talking to people about something we want them to do or why we do what we do is we speak to their neocortex because that’s the part we’re thinking from. So if you’ve ever had a situation where someone says, “I can’t believe you invest in real estate. It’s so risky.”

David: And you jump in and say, “Let me tell you about the return on investment that I’m getting in. Let me tell you about the equity that I built.” Those are all concepts that the neocortex looks at and says this matters. But they’re hearing you in their croc brain.

David: They’re not at all interested in hearing what you have to say until you can convince them I’m not going to lose money doing this deal. I have plans in place. And so once I understood how to communicate with other people when it came to employees I was hiring, clients that we were working with, friendships that I had, literally anything that I did in life, it became so much easier to get people to hear me when I understood the process that their brain was going to process that information through.

Brandon: Wow. All right. So I agree. I read this book actually before even… I think it was before we started the BiggerPockets podcast. I read this book years ago. So it made an impact on me too. But I want to know, in your opinion, what changed or what improved in your real estate investing because of the book? How can you apply something from this book to your specific real estate investing career? I mean, agent, I feel like it’s a little more obvious how it could apply, but your real estate investing business.

David: I will take it a step further and I will answer that and then I will tell you where I’m still struggling and I need to embrace these concepts to get to the next level. When I saw the riots happening in Minneapolis, I could see there’s likely going to be a movement of business and people from the city of Minneapolis when they don’t feel safe to the surrounding suburbs, where they do feel safe. That’s a normal human response.

David: So my mind was seeing the angles of real estate investing correctly. And I found an opportunity to buy a deal, but it was the biggest deal that I would’ve ever bought. And my croc brain was screaming at me, “You’re going to have a $80,000 mortgage payment every month. How are you going to pay that if your tenants stop paying their rent.”

David: And I know every single other investor goes through this, typically at a smaller scale. They’re looking at a duplex and they’re like, “Oh, it’s going to be $2,500 a month. Can I really afford that?” So that $80,000 number, my croc brain was screaming at me, “This is going to bankrupt you. You’re going to lose everything you’ve worked for the whole time. This is wildly irresponsible.”

David: But the part of my brain that processes information rationally, the neocortex, was like, “Dude, that will never happen. This is a great area. These are great tenants. This is going to save you a lot in taxes. People are going to be leaving Minneapolis to go out that direction.” All of the logical reasons to make that decision were lined up very solidly, but I could not get my croc brain to quit screaming at me, “You’re going to blow everything worked for all this time.”

David: So what I had to do was actually honor the croc brain. I had to go have a conversation like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, and sit down and say, “Listen, I hear you, buddy. I appreciate you’re trying to protect me, but you’ve got to convince me how all these things you’re telling me are actually going to happen.” And there was very little substance behind any of it. It was just wild fears that were emotion based.

David: So what finally did it in was I realized there’s a bank that’s willing to give me $13 million of these $15 million or $16 million, whatever it was. They got a lot more on the hook than me. And if their analysts have looked at this deal and they feel good about it, and they’ve done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these, it doesn’t matter if it’s my first one, I got big brother in my corner who’s saying, “Hey, this looks good.” And that finally quieted the crock brain and I was able to move forward.

Brandon: That’s such a good point about the lender. This isn’t always of course a foolproof strategy, but if you have a lender that’s okay doing your deal, that’s like support. It’s like the big brother. Now, if you have a lender that just will not do your deal. You talk a bunch of hard money lenders. Nobody wants to fund it. You can’t get it done.

Brandon: Take that as a sign that this is probably not a deal you should do. In fact, the worst flip I ever did where I lost money on it, I think it’s the only flip I’ve ever actually lost money on, the hard money lender that I had used for several deals before that said, no, he wouldn’t do it. He said it was too big of a project. It was too much money. Too many things could go wrong with it.

Brandon: And I was like, “Idiot. What does he know? I’m going to do it anyway.” So I forced my way through by talking to dozens of lenders, found one person that just trusted me to do it. And yeah, I lost money. So I should have listened to my lender. So good quick tip there.

David: Yeah. The part where I’m still struggling is… Brandon, I’m actually bringing this up on the podcast where I’m putting myself on the front street because it’s a friend has to do with taking the next evolution in my career, which you have mentioned and my neocortex is 1000% in alignment with, that I need to start raising capital and buying a higher volume of deals and probably exercising a little less control over the individual property.

David: But trusting in my judgment when it comes to what area we’re investing in, the fundamentals of the deal, what the underwriting looks like. As opposed to where I find comfort, which is like, okay, we got this in contract. I can shave off $5,000 here. I can add $500 in rent there. It’s kind of fun to creatively tinker with your Rubik’s cube to get it more how you want it.

David: The problem is if you’re individually trying to solve Rubik’s cubes, there’s a limit on how much you can do. The better use of my time would be to focus on macro economic factors, similar to what venture capitalists do and hedge funds do. And they all are doing really well.

David: But my croc brain is screaming at me what I just said, “You won’t be able to look at every single deal exactly. It’s not what you’re used to.” And so I stay sort of frozen here and you’ve done a really good job of lovingly but persistently sort of pushing me towards that plank that I need to jump off of.

Brandon: There you go, man. Love to hear it. Yeah. It’s a fun transition to go for from like I do everything myself to like I am the visionary or whatever you want to call it.

David: You’re like a general, right? It feels good in the soldier who’s used to being in the war and fighting, but to be the general, you’re giving up some control for the greater good of helping all those troops.

Brandon: Yeah. Very much so. Cool, man. Good book, Pitch Anything. That’s number one. We could do this all day.

David: All right. What’s your first book?

Brandon: So I’ve got a stack. I picked like a ton of books from my shelf that I kind of wanted to talk about today. By the way, if we didn’t make this clear earlier, these books are not necessarily real estate books today. In fact, these are books that made an impact on our real estate, but not from a like how to buy a duplex kind of a standpoint.

Brandon: I mean, there’s a million books out there on how to buy property and how to do the specifics, the tactics. These are going to be more of the mindset books or the strategy, the business books that made an impact on us. So I’m going to start actually at the end of my journey. So there were different books that made a big pivot on me. And I’ll talk about those later, things like Total Money Makeover, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, stuff like that. I’ll talk about that later.

Brandon: I’m going to start at the very end because this ties to the announcement that I wanted to make. And there are two books that I’m going to combine into one book for our purposes today. I’m going to cheat here a little bit. The first one was called Lifeonaire. It’s like the word millionaire, but with the word life in front of it, Lifeonaire by Steve cook and Shaun McCloskey.

Brandon: And then the second one was called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer. Now, both these books have a little bit of a spiritual background to them. One of them is actually written by a pastor of a church or a former pastor of a church. I think The Elimination of Hurry one was. But they both have a similar theme. So The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry I just read. Lifeonaire I read a few years ago.

Brandon: But they both have the same theme and that is life is meant to be more than just building wealth for wealth’s sake. It’s more than just hustle. It’s more than just grind until you’re too old to enjoy it. It’s about really stepping back and looking at your life as a temporary thing that we want to maximize and have a good one and not just be miserable all the time.

Brandon: It’s really like just a relief valve on your life. It’s like when a hot water heater gets too hot and it’s going to blow up, it’s got this relief valve. That’s what these books are to me. They were like, “Oh, let’s step back a little bit.” Do you like that analogy? That was pretty good metaphor, right?

David: That was a good analogy.

Brandon: I don’t know the difference between a metaphor and an analogy.

David: I don’t know either, but I know it when I see it.

Brandon: Okay. Yeah. Relief valve on a hot water heater. So Lifeonaire made this great point there. It said, look, the goal of the game determines how you play the game. So there are rules of a game. There’s a goal of the game. And then the way you play is determined by wanting to win the game. I’ll give you an example. It sounds kind of theoretical.

Brandon: But if the goal of monopoly is to get all the money possible and to bankrupt everybody else, which is the goal of winning monopoly, then you’re going to play monopoly a certain way. But what if the goal of monopoly was actually to get as few properties as possible in that game? Well, then you would play differently, right? You wouldn’t buy property. Or what if the goal was like just don’t buy a railroad?

Brandon: If that was the goal of the game, you would play a different way. If the goal was to always make sure you come in second place, you’d play a different way. The goal of the game determines how you play the game. And so the book Lifeonaire asked the question, what is the goal of life? Is the goal of life to make as much money as possible? I think all of us would say a resounding no.

Brandon: Then why do we play the game life as if that’s the goal? And so when you start thinking, wait, what is the goal of life? What is my purpose here? You start thinking, well, it’s to have the best life possible, the most fulfilled life possible. And that’s different for everybody. But all of a sudden, the rules change or the way we play the game changes.

Brandon: And so it was a really mind opening book on that. That’s just one piece of it. Interesting enough, one of the things they advocate in there is paying off all your properties. It’s kind of a real estate related book. They really advocate paying off all your properties. And I have not taken that necessarily and run with it all the way, but I understand the concept.

Brandon: Again, if the goal of life is to get as rich as possible, do not pay off your properties. You shouldn’t. Why? Because leverage is way better at building wealth than by paying cash for all your properties. But if the goal of life is not to get as rich as possible, the goal of life instead is maybe to be secure, if that’s one of your goals, or to have no risk, or to never worry about losing things, then the rules change. Maybe you should pay off in cash.

Brandon: So again, that’s another tangible example. And then The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry is just about how in our society today, it’s just rush, rush, rush, hurry, hurry, hurry, do more, do more, say yes to everything and just kill yourself. And he offers a few like anecdotes to that. Anecdotes? No. What’s the word? Antidotes. Antidotes to that.

Brandon: One of them being like miracle morning, kind of a silence time. It’s taking that time every morning to just be alone and quiet and silent and to plan your day and think and study. I love that. But the second thing he talks about is taking sabbatical or taking extended breaks from your life, from the busyness of your life. And that is something that I am going to be putting into practice here in the coming years.

Brandon: So I’ve been doing the BiggerPockets podcast now for nine years. This is the 10th year we’re coming up on of me being the host of the BiggerPockets podcast. And so for the first time in nine years I’m going to be actually stepping away from the BiggerPockets podcast for kind of an indefinite time. I don’t know what that looks like for me. I’m kind of leaving being that open.

Brandon: I mean, I love BiggerPockets. I love everybody here. I love David. I love Scott and the whole company. The more I read that book, the more I realized like, “Yeah, I want that. I want more relaxation.” I moved to Hawaii so I could surf and I don’t surf. I just don’t do it. Maybe once a month now I’m getting out if that.

Brandon: And I’m like, well, the point of life is not just to do more and more and bigger and bigger and bigger. So David, that’s my gist. Anything you want to add on that one? I know you’ve been kind of along for this last few months of my mental journey going through this decision.

David: Probably nothing right now because I don’t want to cry in the middle of our podcast. I mean, that feeling you get when you have the perfect partner at what you’re doing, I felt that in basketball a few times, where this person and me just meshed perfectly on the floor. It makes both of us better. I felt it in law enforcement with a couple partners where there’s just this effortless flow between the two of you when you’re doing the job.

David: You sort of know what’s in each other’s brains. I have that with you here. And so that’s definitely going to be difficult to have to maneuver through life without that, just from a selfish perspective, because you’re so good at what you do and you make everyone around you so much better. I’m really hoping that we maintain the relationship we have, where you’re one of the people in my life that I actually trust when you give me advice, like we said earlier, like David, this is the next career move that would be best for you. That you’re still able to do that.

David: Because there’s not a lot of people in my life I trust with that influence over me and you’re one of the few that I would say, unequivocably, Brandon and I have a relationship that’s equivalent to I would give you all of my passwords to every account that I have. I would give you the passwords to my bank accounts. When it comes to both the practical things like that and the sort of emotional top secret clearance that I would give in my life, I trust you that much. So we’re all going to miss that impact that you have on all of us, I’m sure. But I’m excited for what other ways you’re able to impact humanity in a similar fashion.

Brandon: Well, thanks man. Appreciate that. One other thing, kind of a quick tip, another reason I’m doing this right now too is David and I talk a lot about bridge building. About if you’re going to build a bridge from where you are today to where you want to get to and you can’t take a boat, the more bridges you build, the slower they build. The slower it takes to get there.

Brandon: In other words, don’t do so many things. And so right now I’ve got this company, Open Door Capital, and we’ve bought a couple hundred million of real estate in the last year. I think we’ll hit $300 million by the end of this year, which is by the time this episode even airs, which is just insane. But I’ve raised now over a hundred million from investors and I’m like, shoot, that is my primary thing right now.

Brandon: It’s going really well, but I’m like, I got to make sure my focus is there as well. So I would encourage anybody listening to this too, is ask yourself, is there anything in your life that you’re doing right now that you love but maybe is slowing down or diminishing your chance of success on something that matters more? And that would be the question I just pose at everyone.

Brandon: And for me the answer was, yeah, this Open Door Capital is the thing that I need to make sure works no matter what, because there’s a lot of investor money at play here and we’ve got some pretty big goals and a big team. So that’s it, man. That’s it for that book.

David: Well, it’s going to make you a better investor yourself by doing more of this, which ultimately gives you more to give to the BP audience.

Brandon: Yeah, I hope so. The last couple years of building Open Door Capital has been fun because I developed a whole new skillset that I can now teach and talk about. So hopefully when I come back from this sabbatical and start talking about this stuff more, we’ll figure out what comes next. I don’t want to dwell on this all day long. But yeah, Lifeonaire/The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. Good books.

David: Something that you mentioned about Lifeonaire that I think is worth highlighting. It’s a book that regardless of how you interpret it, at it’s base, what it’s saying is there are rules to the games you’re playing. Is this the game you want to be playing? And I want to highlight that for everybody here, you’re in somebody else’s game.

David: I’m not saying you’re a victim, rebel against authority and become an anarchist. It’s just how life works. The tax code is a bunch of rules dictated by the government that determines where they want people to invest money. That’s all that it is. If you make money in this way, we tax you this way. If you do it that way, we tax you a different way.

David: The sport you like, they tinker with the rules every single year to make the game better for that business. So the NFL realizes the more points we score, the more popular we are. Let’s make it the change of rules so we can score more points. Basketball did this for a while when it was just becoming too dirty.

David: Like in the Jordan era, it was very rough that the skill of the players wasn’t able to be showcased. So they changed the rules. The job you’re working at, the way you’re making money, everything you’re doing is somebody’s game and make sure that the game you’re playing and the rules you’re playing under are where you want to be.

Brandon: Good stuff, man.

David: Yeah. I like that. I know when we were on Kiyosaki’s podcast just recently, we talked a lot about the rules that you play. Understand that the rules do change. And if you’re keeping an eye on what the rules are… It doesn’t matter who’s in office. Just know that the rules change when different people are in office.

David: I mean, it does matter. But from a real estate standpoint, you can play the game whoever’s in charge. However the rules are dictated, as long as you’re paying attention and you know what those rules are, you’re going to come out on top because 99% of the world doesn’t even know they’re playing a game. So just by the fact that you know you’re playing and you start knowing the rules, you’re going to come out on top.

David: Yeah. I think that’s why a lot of people end up bitter is because the rules change and they didn’t know they were in a game where rules can change. And so their first response is this isn’t fair. But if you understand you’re playing in someone else’s game and you monitor how the rules are, you don’t burn emotional energy on things that aren’t going to benefit you.

Brandon: Yeah. That actually reminds me of that book Who Moved My Cheese? That’s very much like the theme of Who Moved My Cheese? Which if you guys haven’t read that one, put that on your list as well. You can read it in 20 minutes. It’s super short, but impactful book on that. All right. Well, that said, let’s move on to another book. This time, David, it’s your turn. What do you got for us?

David: My third book is Wild at Heart. This is also another faith-based book like we mentioned before. So just heads up. If that it’s not your bag, then you should know that if you’re going to go read this book. But this book in some ways I think did save my life. When I was 18, 19 years old, I was incredibly depressed. I had no confidence, but I didn’t know that I had no confidence because that’s just what life always was.

David: I could tell objectively something’s wrong with me. I don’t think I should be just this unhappy all the time. It’s just like my natural state was a state of constant pain. But I also had never lived any other way so I didn’t know what it was. And I think I was subconsciously assuming like there’s just something wrong with me as a person. I’m broken in some way. I did not take new challenges on. I was afraid all the time of failing.

David: I just assumed I would fail at anything that I did. And when I did have success in something, I just assumed I got lucky. It was a horrible mental place to be in where I would not give myself any credit and I would take on a ton of blame. And that book talks a lot about sort of masculinity and how that needs to be bestowed upon you by another male.

David: It’s not something that you’re just born understanding how to be masculine. I think a lot of men really struggle with this. And those that are blessed to have really good role models, whether that’s a father, a coach, an uncle, or somebody that sort of takes them under their wing and says, “Hey, I’m going to show you what it is to be a man.”

David: They end up having confidence in areas that other people don’t. And that book really highlighted that my relationship with my dad was not ideal. It was not normal. And that the reason I was feeling like this was I had this big empty hole inside from not having anybody take me under their wing and show me what I’m supposed to do in life.

David: And so it was incredibly freeing for me as a person that I thought like, oh, it’s not that I’m broken inside. It’s that I’ve never been filled with what I need. And it was very encouraging to realize that like when the doctor can finally say, “Here’s your problem. You’re overwhelmed by your symptoms, but here’s your diagnosis. There’s hope that it can be changed.”

David: And that sort of put me on a journey of purposely pursuing how to work out the muscles that I knew were weak. And that led of my career in law enforcement. And I saw all the ways that I had really good role models that came into my life through that and challenges that God brought into my life to help strengthen me in the areas that I was weak.

David: And then I didn’t walk around feeling weak all the time. I actually started to develop confidence like a muscle to work out, which ultimately led me to being in this seat I’m in right now, where frankly, it takes a lot of confidence to be sitting up answering any kind of real estate question that could ever come your way and knowing that a lot of people are making decisions based on things that Brandon and I say, which I never would’ve been able to do if it wouldn’t have been for the steps I took after reading that book.

Brandon: That’s awesome, man. Yeah. Wild at Heart made a big impact at me earlier, before I even met you. Back in high school I think I read that one. In fact, we named him Wilder largely off of the book, not specifically, but more his nickname. So I don’t even call him Wilder. I call him wild man. That’s like the only phrase I ever used from, it was like, “Hey, wild man.”

Brandon: And that came from a line in the book where he talks about his son. And when he was mountain climbing with his son or he was rock climbing and his son was struggling and he called his son, “Look at that wild man,” and gave him this boost of confidence because all of a sudden his identity changed right there. He was not just a little boy.

Brandon: His dad saw him as a wild man and he scaled right up the mountain. I’ve always thought that was such a touching story. And so anyway, that just became Wilder’s nickname is wild man. So yeah, huge impact on my life as well. So cool man. Glad you brought that one up.

David: I think a lot of people in our audience struggle with the identity issue that you and I talked about, and that might be a book you and I should write. If you don’t think you’re worth wealth, you’ll find a way to sabotage buying that duplex. You’ll find a way to take that deal that comes across your path and convince yourself that you don’t deserve it and so you won’t pursue it.

David: It’s a struggle I think a lot of listeners are in. So I’m not saying that that book is a cure-all for everybody, but definitely the questions that book made me ask myself, is there really something wrong with me or did I not get something that I needed earlier? That instead of crying about it every day, I can actually go take steps to get it now will help you get over these hurdles that you watch other people accomplish seemingly effortlessly.

Brandon: Yeah. Cool man. Well, moving on.

David: All right. Book number four. Brandon, what you got?

Brandon: I’m going to throw the book… Let’s do this one. We just interviewed the two authors of this book recently on the podcast in the last six months anyway. The book is Who Not How. I would say the concept of the book started changing my life before I actually read the book.

Brandon: Because I had heard of the concept about who not how from people who are part of Strategic Coach, which is Dan Sullivan’s coaching program. So I had heard about this concept of who not how, but then the book just really reenforced it. Who Not How is all about shifting your thinking from how am I going to get this done to who is going to get this done?

Brandon: Because the fact is most things in life are much more akin to football than they are to golf. Let me explain. In golf, you are everything. Maybe you have a caddy, like an assistant, but you are pretty much everything. You are doing it all in golf. You have to know what you’re doing. Every skillset is yours.

Brandon: But football, if you’re the quarterback, you got to be good at like quarterbacking. Is that a word? Is that a verb? We’re going to call it verb. You got to be good at quarterbacking. If you are a tight end, you got to be good at tight ending. If you are a whatever, coach, you got to be good at the coach. It’s like a team sport.

Brandon: And when you start thinking of business and life as a team sport and stop saying, “How do I do that?” It shifts a lot of things. In fact, there’s this concept I’ll talk about maybe in a minute when I get to Rich Dad, Poor Dad, of course, which is going to be one of my books. But Rich Dad, Poor Dad, he says like the poor people say, “I can’t afford it.” Rich people say, “How do I afford it?”

Brandon: I’ve translated that as like some people say, “I can’t do it.” Other people say, “How do I do it?” Dan Sullivan takes it a different step or up a step and says, not just how do I do it, but who’s going to do it? Because that elevates your mindset to a whole new place.

Brandon: My BPCON speech this year at BPCON2021, I talked about the four levels of entrepreneurship or the four kind of mindsets. And there’s like the DIY, I’m just going to go up there and do it. That’s very much like the just get it done. I can do it myself. Then there’s like the kind of project manager. I’m going to kind of like get the job done by hiring random people to do things.

Brandon: I’ll make sure it gets across the finish line, but I’m doing everything to kind of make it get there. And then there’s like the COO level, which is like, I’m going to build a team and they’re going to do it. That’s kind of the who not how principles. I’m going to build a team.

Brandon: And then the final kind of layer at the top of that, the fourth layer, it’s called the architect. And that’s somebody who more like they might hire one person. They don’t go and build a team. They don’t go build a business. They’re not writing a business plan. They oversee the whole thing.

Brandon: These are the Richard Bransons of the world or the David Osbornes of the world. Or even to some degree, like in a smaller way, David and I in some areas of our life try to approach business from this standpoint. If I was going to go start a carpet company today, I wouldn’t go and hire a whole team. I’d just go buy a carpet company. That’s kind of an architect role.

Brandon: In my writing though, in my book writing, I’m a DIY. David, you are a DIY when it comes to book writing. So am I. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s understanding that. So anyway, that’s enough on Who Not How. But who not how is just a concept of elevating your mindset to stop asking, how do I do this myself? And start thinking, how can I get people who are better equipped to do this to do it?

Brandon: And that I would say is the number one reason for the incredible success we’ve had at Open Door Capital over the last few years, the number one reason Davids had such success at his mortgage company. Everything I’ve seen you, David, in your agent business do is because you adopted this long before I did. So yeah, who not how.

David: Thank you.

Brandon: Yeah, man. Anything you want to add on that?

David: Yeah, here’s what I’d say regarding the who not how thing. What I really liked that you highlighted was that it’s not the best way to do it or the only way to do it. It’s a way to do it. And there are pros to doing it that way and cons to doing it that way. And it’s totally fine to operate that way in certain parts of your life and in other parts of your life to operate on the do-it-yourself model.

David: We write our own books. It is painstakingly slow. Newsflash everybody, not every one of the books that you’ve read in your life were actually written by the author. And that’s similar to how Brandon probably felt the first time he realized Justin Timberlake doesn’t write his own lyrics. Brandon was a big JT fan.

Brandon: No, I was not a JT fan. But when I discovered that most country musicians, almost all of them don’t write their own music., I was just like blown away. In fact, one of my favorite bands in the world, I won’t mention who it is. But one of my favorite bands in the whole world, a buddy of mine who…

Brandon: Anyway, he knows the industry. He’s like, “Oh yeah.” He’s like, “The vocals are the only thing on their album that’s actually them.” He’s like, “Even the guitar, the drums, they didn’t play their own drums for the album. They didn’t play their own guitar. It’s all outsourced to professional musicians. They just play live. They don’t even record the album.”

Brandon: My heart was so sad. I was like, “Oh, they were my favorite bands in the world and they don’t even…” It’s not that they can’t do it. They just know that their time is better spent touring.

David: But here’s the thing, many of the gurus that you see on social media or on YouTube, it’s not their content that they’re actually sharing. Somebody else came up with it. Somebody else marketed it. It’s okay. As long as it benefits you, as long as you like the music, that’s all that matters. Who gets the credit shouldn’t be as important.

David: So when it comes to why a lot of businesses fail, it’s because when they’re on a who not how model, which most businesses are, you kind of have to do trial and error to find the right people to make it click. My mortgage company is doing incredible right now. This is the fourth person that I tried to build that business with.

David: The first three were moderately successful, but weren’t what they were. So I had to keep trying. Your favorite sports team is continually trading for players and drafting players and getting new coaches and tinkering with that Rubik’s cube until they get it all lined up just right.

David: So when you’re in the who not how model, give yourself some time and some patience. It tends to scale faster when you get it right, but it takes longer to get it right. Versus the do-it-yourself model, which you immediately start making progress right off the bat.

Brandon: That’s good. Yeah. I mean, Open Door Capital, we actually started three years ago. It took the first year just to build the team and to figure out who I wanted. Who was the right fit in and who was the right fit not in or the wrong fit? And so then once we had the people on the bus, then it became a rocket ship.

Brandon: So yeah, getting the right who’s is the hardest and most important job most people could ever have in life, other than being a parent. But it’s incredibly difficult to find the right whos, but they’ll make a big impact on your life. So there we go, man. All right. Well, moving on. David, what’s your next book?

David: My next book is Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin. I immediately fell in love, if you can say that about a book, when I read this book. It had a huge impact on my identity, you could say. Brandon, you talk about how when you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, you were like, “Yes, that’s what’s been inside of me this whole time. And I’m finally finding a frequency that resonates with the frequency inside me.”

David: That’s what happened when I read extreme ownership. It gave me permission to say, yeah, there’s a part of me that thinks this way and I’m going to let it out. I’m not going to play small and hold it back all the time. The basic philosophy is that if you’re the leader, you need to look at everything like it’s your fault. You cannot say, “That’s not my fault.”

David: If you own the restaurant and the chef makes a mistake, that is not the chef’s mistake. That is your mistake for hiring that chef or training that chef or not having better quality control on that chef. If the chef does everything right and the waiter gives a bad impression to the guest, that is your fault.

David: So many times in life the shortcut is to point the finger at someone else and say, “Well, the contractor messed up. The CPA messed up.” That somebody else messed up. It’s not my fault. But if you’re the leader, it is your fault. And what I’ve loved about this is when embrace everything from that perspective, when you just assume it’s your fault, you get better every time a mistake is made.

David: The waiter who doesn’t embrace it was their fault, they should be practicing extreme ownership too. There should be an argument between the two of you over whose fault it really was. That’s what a healthy relationship would look like. If the waiter’s like, “Yeah, you never trained me how to do that. That’s not my fault. I just showed up to work and did what you said.” They don’t get better.

David: The restaurant owner will get better. And when you’re continually having things that get you better every single day, several times a day, over a five year period, it makes a massive impact on the type of success that you’re ultimately going to have.

Brandon: You know what is interesting about that? You brought relationships, business ones, but also in the personal relationship it’s true also. When you take personal responsibility and ownership of your marriage or your relationship with your significant other, it’s amazing what it does to make them take more ownership as well.

Brandon: For example, if my wife and I are arguing about something, “No, I want to do it this way. I want to do it this way.” Or something goes wrong or we forget something and it’s a big deal or whatever. If all of a sudden one of us shifts to, “You know what? That was stupid. I messed up. I’m sorry. I was the idiot there.” What does it automatically make the other person do? “No, no, honey. It was me. It was my fault.”

Brandon: Because all of a sudden you’re not pushing anymore. You pull back and then the person… I don’t know. One of the biggest reasons or things I see in failed marriages and relationships that are struggling is just the selfishness of like it’s not my fault. It’s their fault. It’s always the other person’s fault. I was actually getting on an airplane the other day and the guy behind me in line was a BiggerPockets guy. Shout out to the guy. I can’t remember his name.

Brandon: But we were just like chatting down like the jetway or whatever it’s called, like onto the plane, whatever that long tube is to get on the plane. And he goes, “I have a weird question for you.” He’s like, “You’ve answered a million real estate questions, but do you have any marriage advice?” He’s like, “I’m getting married soon.”

Brandon: I was like, “Well, the best advice anybody ever told me,” and I’ll tell you guys right now, “Is that if you are in a marriage or a relationship in which each of you give 50% and you meet in the middle, hypothetically or whatever. This is a metaphor. But if you meet in the middle, you have a perfect marriage. If you put 50%, they put 50%, you’re at a hundred percent. Good for you.

Brandon: But the minute that one person is at 49%, now you have a hole in your relationship. Because one person’s at 50% and one’s at 49%, you have a gap in the middle. You have a problem. And if that person’s at 40% one day and the other person’s at 50%, now you got a big gap right there.

Brandon: The difference though is, and I wish I remember who told me this. They said, “If you gave a hundred percent and the other person gave a hundred… First of all, by giving a hundred percent, which is the extreme ownership model, the other person could give 1% and you would still have a perfect marriage or a perfect relationship because you’ve given entirely.

David: You’d still be connected.

Brandon: You’d still be connected. Yeah, you’d still be fine. Now, that said, you can’t have a hundred percent and 1% because… Well, maybe there’s some psychopath out there that won’t give back. But if you’re given a hundred percent, your significant other will also. It’s that same principle I just said.

Brandon: If you’re like, “No, honey, it’s my fault.” They’re going to be like, “No, it’s my fault.” That’s generally how most people… If you’re sincere about it over time that’s… So anyway, that would be my advice in any relationship is give more than 50%. Don’t meet in the middle. Give a hundred percent. Give till it hurts.

Brandon: Don’t be selfish and take ownership of this stuff. You are in charge. You’re in charge of your life and the outcome in it. And so if something’s not good enough, if you’re not happy, if you’re unsatisfied, you can fix it. You have the power to fix it. It’s your fault, your responsibility. Make it happen. David Greene. Good choice of a book. That was a great one.

David: So everybody needs to give their spouse extreme ownership and say you need to do a better job of taking responsibility. Just kidding. Just kidding. Don’t do that. Read the book yourself, set the example, and then they will follow.

Brandon: Yeah, there you go. Cool man. All right. What else we got?

David: I’m not married, but that seems like an amazing way to mess up a marriage. That’s really funny. It’s like buying somebody else a gym membership for New Year’s Eve and saying, “Hey, you really need this. And I wanted to do you the favor of buying it for you.”

Brandon: That’s funny. That’s exactly what that is.

David: All right. What’s your next book, Brandon?

Brandon: Yeah. I’m going to combine two again because I like combining books that have common themes. I’m going to combine these one. It is Traction and The 4 Disciplines of Execution. So Traction is written by a guy named Gino Wickman and The 4 Disciplines of Execution was written by Chris McChesney.

Brandon: We’ve had McChesney on the podcast and I believe Wickman from Traction has been on the BiggerPockets business podcast, I think it was, or it might have been the money pod. I think it was BP Business. And I think he’s coming on the real estate show at some point in here.

Brandon: But both those books are like, this is how you run an effective organization, an effective business. This is how you set goals and how you achieve those goals. And they’re the most tangible. It’s not theoretical in any way. These are so not fun like sit at the beach and read a book and have a great time and laugh.

Brandon: It’s like, this is how you run your business to make it work and make it work well. So we operate on the Traction model, which is called EOS, at Open Door Capital entirely. I mean, we are die hard advocates for it. Even when it feels silly and it’s like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that meeting again.”

Brandon: We do it because there’s such freedom in structure. I’m going to say that again. There is such freedom found in structure. So when you’re just like, “I’m just going to go after my business however I want to and I’m going to meet when I want to and I’m going to set goals when I want to.” It feels very like free and hippy to do that.

Brandon: But the reality is it causes way more stress and drama and way more work than if you just have a system that you follow and you’re like, “This is how we do our business.” My workload cut from 20 hours a week down to about five when I implemented Traction in Open Door Capital. Now everyone else works a lot more than I do. But me being the architect, I don’t have to work quite as many hours. It was such a phenomenal… Both those books, really, 4 Disciplines of Execution and Traction changed my life in a big way.

David: And that’s so encouraging for people to hear that are worried about overworking themselves. I think a common mistake I made when I was younger and I see a lot of people make is they assume the version of themselves they are right now is the same version they’ll be five years from now, but they’ll just have three times as much work.

David: And so people don’t give it their best because they’re afraid that they’re going to end up over worked. Jujitsu taught us this lesson very well. When I don’t know what I’m doing, it takes a massive amount of energy to get the result that I need. The guys that are really good at it don’t use very much energy and their body is conditioned to where they don’t eat as much to accomplish the same thing.

David: So what I’m spending a hundred utilities of energy to accomplish, they’re spending two. And so they don’t get tired like I do. And business works like that. When you do it longer and you get better at it, it takes less energy, less time, less effort to get the same result.

David: And then the people that work underneath you, they slowly start learning the same thing. And so I would definitely want to encourage everybody who does everything themselves and you’ve done this for a year or two, nobody’s good at anything after doing it for a year or two.

David: You’re not busy. You’re just not good at what you do. It takes you too long to analyze it property because you haven’t done it enough times. And as you do it more and more and more, you start to get faster and better, see angles you weren’t seeing. Like me, I can eliminate properties before I even put it in a calculator.

David: I just know it’s not going to work because of these reasons. And I think Brandon you’re similar. You could just tell right off the bat, “Nope, that isn’t going to work and this is why. Move on. Don’t burn any energy.” So books like this and more importantly, committing to the principles in books like this won’t just help you be more successful, but they’ll stop you from working your life away while trying to get there.

Brandon: Yeah. That’s a really good point. It’s one thing to read a book. It’s another thing to put into practice. So like EOS, I’d read it, or Traction, I’d read it for a couple times over the last five years, but I never fully put it into practice. And as soon as I did, like fully committed to it, that’s when everything changed.

Brandon: A lot of these principles we’re talking about today, there’s things that you all are like, “Oh yeah, I know that thing.” But it’s like, are you fully committed to that thing? Have you put it into practice? And it doesn’t matter if you do traction like EOS or you do the four disciplines of execution model or there’s a lot of different models out there for running a business. But pick one, go with it. All right, David, what’s your next book?

David: Next book is the one I shared the first time I was interviewed on the BiggerPockets podcast, episode 169. It’s amazing that it feels not that long ago for me, but we’re already on episode, what are we at today? 537. Wow. Yeah. So I talked about The Richest Man in Babylon.

David: I love The Richest Man in Babylon. I tend to be drawn to more complicated and dry concepts. This book is very simple, incredibly easy to read. It’s fun. It’s just stories basically. But they highlight principles of wealth building that have stood the test of time so, so well, and they can be applied to anything.

David: To this day, several times in a week I will be faced with a decision and I will be torn between which direction to take and something from The Richest Man in Babylon will speak up. And the very simple rule be stated, only invest in things you understand. A big one for me was never take on somebody else’s problem if it’s going to negatively affect you.

David: You can help somebody, but never take on debt from a person that got themselves into debt and make it your own debt to help them because then they’re just going to get deeper into debt again. Times I’ve been tempted to want to do things to help out a friend and that book has stopped me from making some really bad decisions.

David: I mean, anyone can read it. If you’re not even good at reading, you can still get something out of that book. I think they sell it for like $1.99 right now. It’s incredibly cheap. It’s a book that I wish every kid was made to read in school.

Brandon: I don’t know if I’m supposed to announce this. If they want to delete this from the podcast, they can. BiggerPockets Publishing is actually releasing a version of The Richest Man In Babylon in the coming months or a year with a forward and some other additions to it. So kind of cool. We’re taking that in house and it’s going to be launching at BP. If you haven’t read it, it’ll come.

David: What about you? Have you read that book? Did you like it?

Brandon: Oh yeah. Richest Man in Babylon was one of my very first like businessy type books I ever read back when I was probably 20 or 21. And yeah, it was just super cool because it’s just like, oh yeah. It’s written in like this weird kind of like language, very old, almost like King James style.

Brandon: You don’t realize you’re learning such like powerful, valuable lesson because the stories are somewhat entertaining. They’re simple and yeah, huge impact on my life as well. I know Josh Dorkin, the original host here of the podcast, that was also the book that changed his life probably more than any other. He talked about that one a lot as well. So if you haven’t read that one, get it. It’s a good one to give as a gift as well.

Brandon: It’s kind of a cool gift to give people. So consider giving it as a gift. All right, I’m going to move to the next book and it’s related to that one, but a much more modern updated one and it’s a little controversial in our world of real estate investing and that is The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.

Brandon: I’m going to say that one just because there was a point in my life where I was really struggling financially like with credit card debt and spending too much money and all that. Dave Ramsey is the guy, like he’s the guy that helps people get out of debt and to live more fiscally responsible.

Brandon: Now, do we disagree on using debt for real estate? Sure. I mean, he’s very adamant you should never use mortgage ever. It’s stupid. You’re an idiot if you do. But again, to go back to Lifeonaire, I don’t think Dave’s wrong. If the goal of your life is security, which is what he’s teaching people, that you shouldn’t ever have debt on your properties, I guess, but I’m okay not listening to that part of his advice.

Brandon: I’m okay with the risk because I think the reward is way better. But his advice on getting out of debt, getting on a budget, living responsibly made a big impact on my life. At the same time, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I read that right before that. They’re kind of opposite extremes in some ways.

Brandon: But Rich Dad, Poor Dad also obviously made a big impact. I don’t need to spend a lot of time talking about that one. Everyone knows Rich Dad, Poor Dad is like the book. It really did put words to what I was feeling about life is meant to be more than just a 9:00 to 5:00 job until you’re 60 and too old to enjoy it. Is that my final book recommendations? I don’t know. That’s what I came with. Do you have more to wrap it up with?

David: No, those were my five. I’ll comment on Dave Ramsey though. It makes me sad when people attack Dave Ramsey or Robert Kiyosaki because of a flaw, perceived or real, a chink in their armor. We all have those. There is not a human being that hasn’t said something at some point that they wish they could take back or didn’t have their perspective change.

David: I think that’s one of the reasons Joe Rogan’s podcast is so popular, is Joe is humble enough to say, “Yeah, I used to think this, but now I think that.” In fact, if you’re growing, you should have your opinion changing. I just posted something on Facebook yesterday that said, “I wonder if I’ll look back five years from now and cringe at the stuff I’m posting now like I did at the stuff I posted five years ago.”

David: The idea is you should because if you don’t, it means you didn’t grow. And so Dave Ramsey’s advice I think is excellent for defense. It’s really, really wise. He gives wise counsel, in my opinion, 99% of the time that he talks and his audience is typically people that use debt unwisely.

David: They do not listen to podcasts like this. They do not commit to the things Brandon and I say like analyze deals, get to know a market, build a team of smart people. This advice that we’re giving you listeners, they didn’t hear. They went out and bought real estate the same way that somebody might buy a penny stock.

David: Like, oh, let’s just go do it. It’s going to do well. And for someone in that position that’s not educated, they should not be taking on big amounts of debt. It is a bad idea. And paying it off is the safest thing that they can do, especially if they’re playing the game by a different set of rules.

David: Many of his listeners are not real estate investors. They just own a house. One home that they live in and Dave is concerned that they’re going to get themselves into debt that they cannot pay back. Okay. So from that perspective, it is wise counsel. Now, it would not be wise for someone in Brandon and I’s situation or your who’s listening to this situation much of the time, because debt is one of the tools that we use to scale our portfolio.

David: And the same could be said of Robert Kiyosaki. There’s always something you can find in someone that they did that wasn’t great. I don’t really care if he did something that wasn’t great when I’m listening to the advice he’s giving on something he does understand. If Robert Kiyosaki is talking about something with his 40 or 50 years of investing in real estate that he’s learned, ways that you can have saved money on taxes.

David: He may have done something else in another area of his life that you don’t agree with, but what does that have to do with what we’re watching right now? If I’m learning how to box from the best boxer in the world, but that person ran into trouble not paying their taxes, well, I won’t take financial advice from them, but shoot, their boxing knowledge is second to none.

David: So as people are listening, I would just really encourage you before you take the shortcut of jumping on the bandwagon of I’m against this person and I’m for this person. Instead, ask yourself, what can I learn from each of these people? And sort of combine that together to create a mixed martial arts of wealth building.

Brandon: It sounds like a future book you’re going to write, The Mixed Martial Arts of Wealth Building, MMA Wealth Building.

David: That’s a good idea. Mixed martial assets. We’ll have to work on that, like how that could come out. That’s a good concept right there.

Brandon: Oh man. All right. Well, we probably got a close up shop here and get you all on with your day. A couple quick things. First of all, this is not my last episode ever. I’m going to be here still through the end of the year. So if you missed my announcement earlier, I’m going to be taking some time away from BP and the podcast to focus on family and life and Open Door Capital.

Brandon: But I’ll be here through the end of the year. I think my last episode will probably be December 30th. We’re just giving you all a heads up. David, what’s the show going to look like in the future? It’s changing. You probably already noticed we added a new show on Tuesdays now, which is about the market, about news, about things that are happening, and that’s been super popular.

Brandon: We’re bringing a new host try out different ideas, different concepts. And we would love to hear from you. What do you love? What do you don’t love? We’re trying to make this show about you and about how it could be the best show possible for you all. So don’t be shy.

Brandon: Leave your comments on the bottom of the YouTube video or on the show notes page. You can find the show notes at biggerpockets.com/show537. And you can email David specifically about your problems at… I’m just kidding. And that’s all I got for you. Actually, you know what?

Brandon: As long as I’m sitting here right now and I have the microphone, I do want to say, if you’re watching this on YouTube at least, you’ve probably seen this giant stack of books next to me. When we were going to do this episode today, I went and grabbed like every book that I was like, “Oh yeah, huge book in my life. That was an impactful book.”

Brandon: I’m just going to read the whole list right now that’s sitting next to me just in case you’re like, what are those books next to Brandon? So here they are. I’ve got the ones I already talked about today, which is: Who Not How, Traction, 4 Disciplines of Execution, Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, Lifeonaire, Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Total Money Makeover. Those are the ones I talked about.

Brandon: Here’s ones I didn’t talk about yet: The Success Principles by Jack Canfield, High Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard, Profit First by Mike Michalowicz, The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer, The Wealthy Gardener by John Soforic, Wild at Heart John Eldredge, The Power of Moments by Chip Heath and Dan Heath, Never Split the Difference by Chris VosS, How to Talk So Kids Will Listen by Adele Faber, and then there’s another one called How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen. It’s amazing. It changed my parenting.

Brandon: The Advanced Guide to Real Estate Investing and The ABCs of Real Estate Investing both by Ken McElroy. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Drive by Daniel Pink. And then ones that were on my Kindle, I didn’t have the physical books: Vivid Vision by Cameron Herold, The 12 Week Year by Brian Moran, The Millionaire Fast Lane and Unscripted both by MJ DeMarco. Those last ones I would highly recommend.

Brandon: I mean, I’d recommend every one of these books. But MJ DeMarco wrote The Millionaire Fast Lane and Unscripted. And he’s got a new book I haven’t read yet, but it just came out. But MJ DeMarco is one of my favorite authors of all time. Very good. So that is my current list of books that’ll make you rich. Cool? David, that’s all I got. Thank you.

David: Well, I will still be here on the podcast. We will be doing, like Brandon said, different types of formats. So we’ll still be interviewing people and asking how they scaled their portfolio, how they built it, what they’re an expert in. But we’re also going to be doing more state-of-the-market stuff, like Brandon said, as well as sort of coaching scenarios where we take a couple people, maybe three people on a show and they say, “Hey, here’s where I’m stuck.” And I walk them through what they could do different.

David: And the Seeing Greene episodes where you submit your questions directly and I answer those for everybody to hear. Here’s what we want: we want to create something that anytime you have an opportunity to listen to a podcast, you want to come here because we have the absolute best content in the world, as well as the biggest talent for revealing it.

David: So please tell us in the comments which of these show formats you like the most. We will make more of those if everyone likes them, as well as what you would like to see. Brandon, I know you’re still going to be coming here. And in the meantime, Brandon will be with me in spirit as his bubble head lives over my head right here with me all the time.

Brandon: That’s awesome. Well, I’m glad I can be a part of your office even when I’m not there in person. So do David Greene, it’s been a great show today. Thank you for joining me and for sharing your valuable insight, as always. If you all like this show, let us know biggerpockets.com/show537.

Brandon: You can leave a comment there or on the YouTube video. Leave us ratings and reviews at iTunes. It helps us a lot to reach more people with the message of financial freedom through real estate investing and other wealth building methods. So with that said, I think it’s time to get out of this episode. So David, why don’t you close up shop?

David: Yep. He is BeardyBrandon, I am DavidGreene24, and BiggerPockets. Follow all of us on Instagram and go find another episode to listen to right now. This is David Greene for Brandon book stack Turner. Signing off.